Who are the Free Radicals Collective?
In this episode, we speak with two members from the Free Radicals Collective. They share some of their recent activities as a growing group of activist mathematicians and scientists. Catch this episode if you are interested in learning how some folks are organizing for a more socially just, equitable, and accountable science.
Contact Free Radicals Collective: freeradicalsblog (at) gmail (dot) com
Recent Free Radicals blog post: A digital illustration showing people in the park walking their dogs in a carefree manner. Around them are people in orange jumpsuits cleaning oil spills, putting out fires, and landscaping. Illustration by Keshy Jeong.
Recommended Artists:
Recommended Readings:
Is science multicultural?: Postcolonialisms, feminisms, and epistemologies. by Sandra G. Harding
Decolonizing methodologies: Research and indigenous peoples. by Linda Tuhiwai Smith
“Science Under the Scope.” by Sophie Wang
The immortal life of Henrietta Lacks. by Rebecca Skloot
Bloodchild: and other stories. by Octavia Butler
Wanna Do More?
Transcript (Please excuse any errors)
[Music Intro ♫]
LaToya Strong [LS]: Hey, listeners. Welcome to Abolition Science Radio. We're your hosts. I'm LaToya Strong.
Atasi Das [AD]: And Atasi Das. We're here to talk all things science and math and their relationship to-
LS: Colonialism.
AD: Oppression.
LS: Resistance.
AD: Education.
LS: Liberation.
AD: And so much more.
[♫ Music fade out.]
AD: Hey, so welcome back to another episode of Abolition Science Radio. I am one of your co-host, Atasi Das, along with LaToya Strong who is not on this intro for this episode, but we usually introduce each guest, and this week we have another person on our team, Allison Cabana, who is a graduate center student at the CUNY Graduate Center, and researcher with us just to help introduce.
Allison Cabana [AC]: Good morning. Yeah, so, I'm usually behind the scenes on here, but excited to be behind the microphone today, just to help introduce and the first question that I have for you, Atasi, is who's on the show today?
AD: Today's show we'll be talking to the Free Radicals and the Free Radicals is an activist collective consisting of scientists and mathematicians that are looking to create a more socially just, equitable, and accountable science. So, without any more introduction or further ado, let's find out more about who they are.
AC: Great, I'm excited.
[01:32]
AD: Well, thank you so much August and Alexis for joining us from the Free Rads. Can you tell us a little bit about where you're calling from. We have two folks from the Free Radicals and what are you listening to currently.
Alexis: I'm calling from Los Angeles. I'm actually calling from my office, and I'm currently listening to a lot of Stevie Wonder. It's a classic, but I like going back to it over and over it again.
AD: Yeah. Stevie's awesome.
August: Well, I'm currently in Boston actually, but I live in Providence, and I've been listening to a lot of Janelle Monae, and I went to her concert in Boston last Saturday.
AD: Oh, how was it?
August: It was amazing except for the encore, which was really weird, because she ended on this . "I'm an American" song.
LS: Oh.
August: It was very patriotic.
LS: Really?
AD: That's so interesting.
August: Yeah. It was strange-
LS: Oh.
AD: Boston?
[2:32]
LS: That is strange. Okay. Yeah, thank you. Can you both just tell us and our listeners who and what are the Free Radicals?
Alexis: Sure. So Free Radicals is an activist collective that was started in 2015. We sort of started as a reading group, just sort of exploring some readings about science technology studies, and how race and gender and disability, all the identity categories affect our sciences. And we just felt really inspired to share a lot of what we were learning and kind of take it out of these stuffy old academic journals, and be able to share it with our peers in a way that was really fun and engaging in a way that we sort of talk about issues.
So that gave birth to this idea of starting a blog. 'Cause actually, I was hanging out with my friend, Sophie Wong, who's one of the other co-founders. [inaudible 00:03:30] care about this. We were at a Korean spa, so we were naked in an ice room, and I was, "I have this idea for this blog about science and social justice", and she was instantly, "Let's call it Free Radicals." And yeah, so we started off with this blog sharing articles, podcasts, couple a videos about some of the issues that we were talking about and thinking about. And so that sort of has evolved into a lot of other different things. We still have the blog, but now we've been doing workshops, trying to do political education around these issues of science and social justice, as well as partnering with some local grass-roots campaigns. Issues that are sort of at this intersection. That's sort of our work's kind of always changing and evolving as our collective grows and as people have different passions and interests that they bring to the table.
AD: That's awesome. Can I ask a little bit more about in your collective, are members of the collective from a particular background in science, or how do you guys find one another?
[04:38]
Alexis: Yeah, we come from all sorts of different backgrounds. I'm a neuroscience major. August, you did
engineering, right?
August: No.
Alexis: No? I just assumed 'cause you went to Harvey Mudd.
August: I did math.
Alexis: Oh you did math? Okay.
Yeah, so we have life sciences, math, engineers. We also have folks who actually have social science backgrounds because science is really, when we start looking at it, it's really interdisciplinary and touches upon all these different fields beyond just what we traditionally think of the science. And it's actually, in terms of people joining our group, it's been pretty organic. People reaching out to us because they hear about us through social media, or through our blog, or through word of mouth. What I've noticed is that we first started, we're like, "Is anyone gonna care about this? Is this super niche?" But what it feels like is that there's actually a real hunger for this type of dialogue, and so we have people from all over the country like we just said. I'm in LA August is in Providence. We have people in London and Canada and Midwest. So I think people are really looking to have the more strong political engagement with their science work.
LS: Great, thank you. So again for the listeners, we're lucky and privileged to have two different folks from the Free Rads here, Alexis and August. Could you both tell us about your specific roles in the Free Radicals?
August: Sure. So I'm part of the East Coast Chapter which just recently started. We had our first sort of like visioning retreat last month, and Alexis's, I guess they're now like the West Coast Chapter as Free Rads has been expanding. We don't really have specific roles right now since we're going to have our first real membership meeting in a few days. But we're working on doing working groups for the membership structure of the chapter, how we're gonna organize and also how we're gonna do science and research.
AD: Awesome.
Alexis: Yeah, and so I've been with Free Rads for the past three years, so my roles have kind of changed over time. In the beginning, we were sort of like a small tight-knit group where it's kind of all hands on deck, everyone doing everything. But now as we've grown and we have many more projects, my main involvement is with one of our campaigns which is focused on predictive policing and trying to get LAPD to stop its use of predictive policing programs, and doing a lot of community education around the political nature of data as well as helping steward our blog content, working with our content creators to create content that fits with our political vision.
AD: That's really interesting. I hope that maybe we can talk a little bit more about what you mean by "the political nature of data". Maybe you can tell us just a little bit more about what you mean by that.
[07:35]
Alexis: Yeah, definitely. So basically on the context of this campaign, LAPD is using these [inaudible 00:07:42] learning algorithms in order to try and predict where crime will happen, and that's what they use to determine where they're gonna send their police around the city. They've basically been saying that, "It's objective because it's the computer, and it's an algorithm, and we're just going where they tell us to." And that's really just a way for them to not be accountable to the way that they're perpetuating their typical racist policing practices. Because when we think about data, it's not just this sort of ... in the ether process, but I always think of data as something that humans are creating with the questions that we're asking, how we're collecting the data, how we're just having to interpret it, what we are doing with that data, what kind of systems they're embedded in. All of these questions that we can ask about how we think about data really shows that they are part of these very human, social, political processes.
And in the context of this policing data, we sort of see that most of the data that they're getting is coming from police arrests and reports, and so if we think about how police disproportionately approach or arrest black folks versus white folks, or even if there's similar crime ... criminal activity, for example like drug use or possession. Then we see that what's getting put into the algorithm is that, "Oh you should be going back to these communities and geographic areas that are mostly populated by low-income [brown 00:09:26] folks." And so it creates this kind of positive feedback loop where police are just going back to the same places over and over and over again. And it creates this climate of harassment, and with the police interacting with black folks often ends in assault and death. So I think it's really important that we don't just take these easy answers about how science and data are these just magical objective things, but we actually try and deepen the rigor with which we understand the data information and science that we create through asking a lot of questions and thinking about how all of our social context affects it.
AD: You have such a interesting way of engaging in the conversation of data and this idea of objectivity, and I really appreciate you sharing this work. For all of us to really question ... appreciate how you talked about this human-created data is really human-created through the questions we ask. So the conversation doesn't start with, "Oh let's start with the data." But let's start with how we think about the world itself and our relations in it. So I really appreciate you sharing that, and I think I connect myself and my own work and my own thinking of making sense of the world in that way.
LS: And numbers?
AD: And numbers, yeah.
LS: Yeah, could you ... So August, you said you were math, and Alexis, I can't remember what you said that your background was in-
Alexis: I was in neuroscience.
LS: Oh neuroscience, thank you. Could you both tell us about things that you were experiencing in your education, or perhaps in any science careers or jobs that you've had that sort of helped push Free Radicals to come into existence? And then maybe more generally collectively, what were other folks bringing to the table about what they were experiencing?
[11:23]
Alexis: Yeah, sure. So I think one of the experiences I had that was really impactful was I had this professor who I did my thesis with. Her name's Rachel [Levin 00:11:35]. And she was dong research on the neuroscience of transgender identity. Most of the scientific literature about trans folks uses this really wonky transphobic language about true transsexuals and other gynophilic transsexuals. And there's all this weird research about digit ratio which is the ratio of your index finger and your little finger and how that affects your sexuality. It's all this very bio-essentialist narratives. And what my professor was trying to do was really revisit that research to debunk it by going and trying to collect data in a really inclusive way. So letting people self-identify their gender and trying to get a really comprehensive spectrum of people so that it wasn't ... most of this research was done in gender identify clinics with people who've had sort of like this very normative stories. They're all like trans women who liked men and were right-handed and all of these things.
What I really appreciated about being mentored by her is that she said that, "Oh, we're not just scientists, we're activists." And really trying to [inaudible 00:13:00] the way she approached her work in a way that reflected the community's values and how do people talk about themselves, and why are we doing this work. And so that was really influential to me because I was like, "I really wanna see more of this type of approach to science." And then when I looked out into the world, there was very little of that. That was part of my wanting to start a group where there was more of a common norm that we are thinking about our science through this lens of social justice.
August: Yeah, I think ... actually I babysat for Rachel [Livend 00:13:39] a little bit. But I think for me ... I think what happened for me was the actual process of trying to do scientific research. So I guess my undergrad thesis was on cooperative strategies and game theory as opposed to like the ... I don't know if you've heard about the stuff like the prisoners' dilemma or the typical approach to game theory or like sexual selection where it's all about competition. I think in general, and the reason I'm still in science and research, is I've always been interested in breaking down categories and terminology and stuff. But anyway, I was trying to do some research into cooperative strategies, it was very sparse. There wasn't much out there, and I think as I've continued to do research, I just see that a lot of research follows this very specific paradigm with these very specific definitions and trying to work outside of those boxes. People are just really stuck.
So I think the actual process of doing research, and then also moving into ... so now I do research on H.I.V. and transmission dynamics. I think it's painful, one because people treat H.I.V. as ... there's so much money for H.I.V. research and the way people act when they get a lot of money is to hoard it. Whenever I would have research results, people would be, "Don't present it until it's published because otherwise people will come in and steal it." I was like, wow, okay.
But then also just the way people talk about individuals who are living with H.I.V. is terrible. And I think seeing all of this within the structure of academia, I think this sort of how ... and also being someone who identifies as a trans person of color and also seeing that research and those news articles come out about like, whatever ... yeah, like what Alexis was saying bioessentialist narratives of gender. Yeah, I think it makes me always think there needs to be a different kind of science.
AD: Absolutely. I think both of you shared of the dynamics that exist in these ... the already-existing dynamics within academia that kinda push a particular way of engaging in it. And any kind of investigation is so problematic in and of itself. And so it's like the boundaries of asking those questions are like contingent on funding and this idea of being the first to claim a claim, as if that's kind of how humanity-
[16:28]
LS: Yeah, people's lives are at stakes. And the main concern with a lot of academia is coin it first or hold onto it because it's yours. So this ownership of knowledge, but I think we are pushing back against, and you all are pushing back against, and just the way that Free Rads operate and that way that we're trying to operate is that we can only get here through collectivity and engagement with other people. Having said that, could you tell us about some of the work that Free Radicals engages in? Like what is the work that you all do?
Alexis: Yeah, so I kind of think of our work as existing in three buckets. [inaudible 00:17:03] sort of like internal work of community building. So a lot of people join us because they say that they're working in these labs or at universities, and they feel like it's kinda a hostile environment to them to be a person of either their politics or of their identities and to not really see that reflected around them. And so thinking about how can we first and foremost support each other as individuals, we're trying to navigate [use 00:17:33] often white, masculine, [sis 00:17:36], straight spaces that aren't really inclusive to anyone like white men. And how do we help each other try to ... 'cause it can be easy to want to instill your epics into your scientific career, [but it's often 00:17:54]. As we talked about, none of the career incentives are really there. So how do we support each other in trying to really fulfill these desires to see our politics reflected in those people who are pursuing academic work.
And then the second place I think that we have a lot of work is political education, like I said. So we do a lot of different workshops, going to universities, and student groups, and conferences telling people about some of these ideas that we've been thinking about, talking about the imperialist history of western science, or talking about what are some tools to incorporate research justice into your work.
And then I would say the third bucket has been actually doing some of the grass-root organizing that we are trying to promote to other scientists. I think because we believe in the work and it's part of our mission, but also to model to other scientists this is what it really looks like to connect the work that you're doing in the lab which is issues that are happening in the communities around you.
AD: I just wanted to clarify a little bit and promote the ... particularly the last bucket where you're talking about grass-roots organizing. I'm kinda envisioning that happening within academia spaces of, "Hey, let's talk about this in a broader manner." Are those the spaces that you are engaging in that organizing? I also know you talked about the predictive policing work. Where are those platforms that you find yourself ... or where are those spaces that you find yourself trying to engage?
[19:35]
Alexis: I would actually say that most of what it looks like is not at the level of university but really more at the level of communities that are most impacted by injustice 'cause I think within academia ... not that there isn't opportunities for movement-building there, but it's a much privileged space for people who are often higher-income levels, higher education levels, more social mobility. I think we at least so far have prioritized how do we leverage our privilege and our skills to help folks who don't have the same access necessarily as we do.
For example, I talked about the policing campaign. The other campaign that we've been working on which is called science washing. So we coined this term "science washing" as a compliment to art washing to talk about how, not just art or some of these green washing, but how academic and research institutions and other sciences are involved in gentrifying areas and displacing people. So for example, the particular campaign we're working on here in Los Angeles has to do with the development of a biotech corridor that USC and LA County is trying to build in East LA which is a predominantly low-income [inaudible 00:20:59] community. So the people on the ground there are very much trying to fight this development because they know it's going to lead to displacement. And so we're partnering with these ... like a coalition of neighborhood groups, and basically we're offering them how to think about and talk about this threat of biotech and counter the narrative that we know that LA County and USC are going to report about how science helps everyone and how it's gonna bring jobs and how universities are great. So that's more how we've been positioning ourselves, but I do think that there is definitely, in the future, space to do some of the work more from that side as well.
AD: Thanks for sharing that. It's interesting as you're bringing up the science washing piece, it made me really think of this: our current political context and how the word "science" is leveraged in lots of different forums. There's been the science marches that have happened over the past, I guess a year, maybe more by now.
What are your guys' thoughts on how that relates to the work or the push that you're engaging in when you're talking about science washing? We have the science march there and this idea of truth vs. not truth and rhetoric. How do you find yourself working in that context?
August: Well, I think Alexis has actually worked a little more with the March for Science people. But I think just generally, within sort of this ... and I do feel that some of the stuff about the science being for the people is in the wake of 2016, but I do think it's still somewhat invested in science as truth. Well, I don't know if you agree with me, Alexis, but I think that within Free Rads, we are more interested in actually critiquing science and scientific practices and how it's rooted in imperialism and western imperialism specifically. Just talking about other forms of science. While thinking about science is just sort of a way of asking questions and correcting information about the world and sort of validating other forms of science as well, as opposed to objective, this idea of objective science always bringing people forward or something.
Alexis: Yeah, I would agree with August that the platform for the March for Science is kind of like noting western science TM and kind of basically ... When I went to the March for Science, we had a booth there, but I thought all the chants were boring because it was just like, "Science is truth and facts matter." and kind of like these one-dimensional platitudes. And I think for us that we think that obviously there's an opportunity that there's this mass mobilization of scientists, and so I think that's something we're trying tap into a little bit. But I think that there's still a ways to go in terms of what the March for Science's analysis of science and how it can serve the world really can go. Where I was just trying to push them a little bit left.
AD: Right. Correct, not right.
[24:37]
LS: And how were you all received at the March for Science?
Alexis: There were people ... the whole spectrum of people. I remember we had this one sign that said "demilitarized STEM". And someone came up to us and they were like, "When you say 'demilitarized STEM', do you mean that we should take away funding from the military?" And we were like "Yes".
LS: Yes.
Alexis: That was the first March of Science. That was right after Trump had dropped the mother-of-all-bombs bomb. We had a lot of messaging around that. There were a lot of folks who came up to us ... we had basically in our booth, we had these posters all over that were asking questions like, "How does your race affect your experience in science, how does your gender, documentation status, ability, all these different things?" And had people come in and share what their experiences had been. And a lot of people said that we were the only booth that were really asking these questions, and people were really excited to see that there was a presence like that at the March.
We actually got to speak at the expo for a few minutes. And what was really interesting and probably not surprising is that when they were advertising the March this year, they actually took a lot of clips from our speech, but all the parts that were not that political. They basically spliced the parts that were like, "Western science is dominated by straight, white, able-bodied men." And then they took out all the parts about it's like implicated imperialism and how capitalism sucks and all that stuff. So it was also interesting to see that development. Usually we like to share all videos featuring us, but we're not sharing these. Yeah, basically they were like, "Oh look, we have people of color here." It was all of these ads, we were the first ones that were shown, and then they just didn't include any of our actual critiques of science. Yeah, I'm just sort of traditional [crosstalk 00:26:50]. So that was interesting to see how, when you try and engage with these mainstream movements, how easy it is for them to [co-op 00:26:58] you.
LS: Absolutely.
AD: Right? So maybe we can ask the next piece that we wanted to ask you. You've talked a lot about what brought you personally to this kind of thinking and your positions in your own work and research. But how might you say you've changed as a "science" person over time?
Alexis: August, you go ahead.
August: No, I mean I think I was just gonna say that I think for me I always ... I don't think my research practices have changed significantly, in part because I am still in academia and there is a way of doing things. But I do think that ... I did always think science could be entwined with social justice. But I always kept them separate, like I would do my science and then I would do my organizing. So I think part of how I've changed as a science person over time is actually working towards incorporating them together. And I think now that ... I just got my PhD this past year.
AD: Oh, congrats.
[28:07]
August: Thank you. But now I feel like I have no freedom to do [crosstalk 00:28:11] kinds of research. So I'll see where that goes.
LS: What is your PhD in?
August: Applied Math.
LS: Okay.
AD: And this is that research you were talking about in terms of the cooperative-
LS: Strategies?
AD: Strategies?
August: My research is now are mostly in this field called biogenetics which is the study of evolutionary relationships between organisms, and like applied to H.I.V. transmission.
AD: Got it.
Alexis: I think for me, it was just kind of like I said in the beginning, I kind of thought this was a niche area thinking about science and social justice. And now I see it everywhere. I worked for a couple of years as a grant-writer, so I was really deep in learning about all of the different funding agencies and really the heavy role the military plays, and then just thinking about knowledge in general. How do we value different types of knowledge? How do we value western science versus other non-western forms of knowledge? Or even how do we value something like data versus someone just sharing their world experiences? Really trying to think about what are the parts of science that we can reclaim for community benefit, and what are the parts that we can do away with?
So I think as you get deeper into it, you see that this really affects everything in terms of the way that we talk about and think about knowledge in general.
AD: Great, thank you for sharing that. It's really interesting to hear about your journeys and how this work ... that you are taking this work and doing things with your ideas and doing that collectively. Before we end, are there particular books that you might ... for listeners who might wanna find their way in their own journey, are there books you would recommend as well as are there other events or projects that people can join if they're interested to join in this collective?
[30:18]
Alexis: I know that one person who's been super influential for us has been Sandra Harding. She's a philosopher of science, and she has a lot to say about feminist sciences. And one book of hers that ... to be honest, I never read fully all these books. Many chapters of which I read is called "Science Multicultural". There's also a really good book called "Decolonizing Methodologies" that sort of talks about western science versus new technical ... comparing [inaudible 00:30:50] indigenous sciences.
There's, of course, always the things on our blog, but I'll point out one of the pieces in particular which is called "Science Under the Scope" which [inaudible 00:31:02] and my co-founder, Sophie Wong, put together. And that was a really fun comic that [inaudible 00:31:08] on a lot of these really complex topics like objectivity in a way that's really fun. I think that's all I can think of off the top of my head, although I have loads of readings on my Google drive if anyone ever wants any.
August: Yeah, so I really liked "The Immortal Life of Henrietta Lacks" with the HeLa cells. Really goes into the history and ... apparently the author spent 10 years doing all the research for this story.
But actually, I think in general, I actually really like ... I will recommend reading a lot of sci-fi. 'Cause I think it really explores the possibilities that are out there. We read this piece in one of our Free Rads remote meetings that was by Octavia Butler. I like "Parable of the Sower" and all that, but this is like a short story, although I can't remember what it's called right now. But yeah, Octavia Butler or other sci-fi ... well I guess I think mostly sci-fi written by people of color is better in terms of reading.
And actually in terms of a project if there are folks who do want to get involved ... actually I think one way in which science can really help with organizing right now is in pipeline resistance camps. So an example of that is noDAPL, fighting against the Dakota Access Pipeline. Actually, I work with the crew of folks who are at the L'eau Est La Vie Camp right now in Louisiana. They're fighting against the Bayou Bridge Pipeline which crosses through the largest wetlands in the U.S. It goes through the St. James community which is pre-dominantly black. It's built by ETP who also built Dakota Access, and it actually [affects 00:32:57] to DAPL.
So one way folks can get involved, especially if you're working ecology, in particular here they're looking for folks working in bird ecology. But the permitting process actually states that the pipeline has to be halted or re-routed if they discover colonial nesting birds or nests. In the area, there are several species of birds, and actually folks on the ground there have seen these birds everywhere. And ETP is supposed to be conducting regular surveys of the areas as construction moves along to confirm there's no nests there. But perhaps somewhat predictably they have not heard of any of these surveys.
One strategy they're looking at is to have folks who ... it's supposed to be quote unquote "qualified biologists" submitting these reports, so they're actually looking for scientists who have expertise in the area to go out there and do these surveys and publicize them and send them out. Sort of as a replacement for what ETP should be doing and as a strategy to halt the pipeline. I think in general a lot of these camps are looking to be ... [inaudible 00:34:06] like scientists to train them in how to actually document and collect information on the wildlife in the area both as a strategy to fight against these damaging pipelines, but also just to enhance their own skillset and understanding of the area.
AD: Thank you for sharing that. It's a very actionable thing that folks are interested in and are able to connect to.
[34:34]
LS: Yeah. And is there anything ... any final thoughts that either of you would like to speak to? Anything that came up in our conversation or just anything that's on your mind in general that you just would like to say to listeners?
Alexis: I think it can feel lonely for a lot of people in the sciences or science education or anyone who's trying to do this work. What I think I've especially learned from being part of Free Radicals is just that finding the people to support each other and do that work together makes it way better. So I think, you're not alone. There are lots of folks out there who are thinking these things. Anyone who wants to join Free Radicals, they can just email us at freeradicalsblog@gmail.com. That's my plug.
AD: Cool, thank you for that plug. We'll definitely make sure we post it with this episode. Thank you so much for joining us, Alexis and August. We really appreciate your time, and for the amazing work that you're organizing and being a part of. We hope to-
LS: Absolutely.
AD:... join you in this longer struggle for a better world for all of us.
Alexis: Yeah, thanks for having us.
AD: Absolutely.
[35:47] [ ♫Stevie Wonder-Signed, Sealed, Delivered, I’m Yours ♫♫♫]
AD: You just heard from Stevie Wonder's song called "Signed, Sealed, Delivered, I'm Yours" which was released all the way back in 1970 from his album called "Signed, Sealed, Delivered." So we just heard from this awesome song that many of us have heard. Latoya, what did it make you think of when it came up for you?
LS: So for me, in thinking about Stevie Wonder, I really think about how a lot of his music is feel-good music. He, after all, gave black people their ... our version of the happy birthday song. And so thinking about how both Alexis and August spoke about finding professors and other people who were thinking the same things as them in terms of science and its connection colonialism, imperialism, and more, and how doing radical work and going against the grain is sometimes isolating. So when you find someone who you can go against the grain with, it's just the joy from, "Oh, I'm not the only one." So Stevie Wonder definitely providing music for those moments.
AD: Yeah, I agree with you. I think for me it's Stevie ... talking to Stevie like he's my friend ... his music always brings people to the dance floor. I feel like I always wanna move and just feel motivated. So I think that joy is something that's really important and even investigating and thinking of the realities around us that we also need to hold onto the joy that's also around us. So that's what Stevie kinda brings out for me, and like you said, I think finding folks who you can engage in this, work with, that you can build collectivity just like Free Rads and just like what we're trying to do. Yeah, Stevie kinda just keeps us going, keeps me going.
LS: So I can't imagine that anyone hasn't ever listened to Stevie Wonder, but if haven't, definitely check him out. He is a living legend, a living icon. And we thank him for providing us feel-good music. And special thank you to Alexis and August for joining us today.
AD: Tweet us.
LS: Yeah, tweet us your feel-good song.
AD: If you haven't already, check us out on our website and subscribe. You can find us on iTunes, Google Play, Stitcher. You can find us on so many apps. So, check us out, subscribe, leave comments, like us, and we hope to hear from you soon.
[Musical Outro ♫]
