Afrofuturism & Math Ed
In this episode, we speak with Dr. Nathan Alexander, mathematics educator, researcher, and James King, Jr. Visiting Professor of Mathematics Teaching at Morehouse College. Dr. Alexander's work aims to improve an understanding of how we learn, our collective knowledge of justice and injustice, and our relationship with mathematics. Listen in as we talk with him about Afrofuturism and Black futurity and how he connects these concepts to mathematics education.
Website: professornaite.com
Twitter: www.twitter.com/professornaite (@ProfessorNaite)
Dr. Alexander’s Song: Solange (Stay Flo)
Recent Publications:
Recommendations:
The Algebra Project (Bob Moses)
Transcription (Please Excuse Errors)
[Music Intro ♫]
LaToya [LS]: Hey listeners! Welcome to Abolition Science Radio, we’re your hosts. I’m LaToya Strong-
Atasi [AD]: And I’m Atasi Das. We’re here to talk all things science and math and their relationship to-
LS: Colonialism
AD: Oppression
LS: Resistance
AD: Education
LS: Liberation
AD: And so much more.
[ ♫ Music fade out.]
[0:25]
AD: Hey y’all.
LS: Heyy listeners.
(Ha ha)
AD: Heyy listerners.. oh we haven’t done that in a while.
LS: We haven’t don’t it in a while!
AD: How are y’all doing? Good, I hope. I hope you all are well.
LS: Yes. And if you’re not well, we hope you’re getting well. Mentally, emotionally, all the -ally’s.
AD: Ha. So…today, um, so happy to be back for another episode. It’s gonna be great. But we usually start off with checkin in. So, what’s going on?
(Ha ha ha ha ha)
[0:54]
AD: Tell me about all of your life. What’s going on these days? Is there anything you’re learning that’s something interesting, new, new stuff?
LS: I’m taking pottery.
AD: Oh!
LS: But I’ve been takin – it’s, I don’t think I’ve reached a year yet. My shit be mad lopsided and wobbly. But, I made that!
AD: I like that though.
LS: I made it! You can’t tell me nothin.
AD: Ha ha ha ha ha.
LS: So, everybody’s gettin like, Christmas presents – ah! Ha ha ha ha ha.
AD: I must say, I like asymmetry a lot. So whenever I see kind of people’s artwork that, their own touch – that’s great. So, I’m just sayin, I’m a fan. I feel like.
LS: Ok, I’m glad cause, you gon get something.
(Ha ha ha ha ha)
LS: Oh, what about you? Anything new? What’s new?
[1:36]
AD: What is new? Well, man I should be doing an art thing.
LS: Wait, why do you think you SHOULD be doing an art thing?
AD: Cause I think that would be a good way to kind of like, do something that’s not academic. I feel like I’ve been schooling so much and so hard that I like, need to use my…self in a different way. But I guess I’ve been like, taking walks a lot more.
LS: Oh nice.
AD: Yeah. When I went for the first time, like, to Pennsylvania and it’s like, there’s this –
LS: Ha.
AD: Yeah, I went to Pennsylvania.
LS: Yeah, sorry sometimes I just have these – I’m like, that was a dumb – that’s like, not a - I was like, you walked to Pennsylvania? That’s like …
AD: No no no no.
LS: You clearly didn’t walk to Pennsylvania.
AD: Yeah yeah. Let me clarify, you’re right. Ha. But also, I should be clear – a ha ha.
LS: Ha ha.
[2:20]
AD: I drove to Pennsylvania. And went to this beautiful place, it’s like the Delaware River Gap. And it was like, wow! It’s so interesting how like, being out the city for a second, you’re like just walking for – it wasn’t even that long. It’s like, I went for an hour to actual hike, whatever, on a trail.
LS: Oh yay! I like hiking.
AD: And so, it was so beautiful and it was like really great, and so, I’ve been trying to do that more. Also, in the city. Just walking around, maybe the block a couple times.
[2:48]
LS: Yeah, I love hiking. I don’t hike – oh no, that’s a lie. I think in March, I went on like a– I went out to Jersey. But every fall, I’m like, oh I’m gonna go upstate cause I’ve never been upstate.
AD: Oh man.
LS: I mean, I’ve been to Yonkers.
AD: Mhmm.
LS: I go to ha haha, …I mean, it’s – kinda, it’s not, upstate. But it’s upstate.
AD: Ha ha ha. Ish.
LS: Up from me.
AD: Ha ha ha.
LS: It’s like, oh I’m gonna go upstate, I’m gonna go hiking. And I have a friend, we always say we’re gonna do this and we don’t ever do it.
AD: Oh yeah.
LS: But I love it. I do like hiking.
[3:14]
AD: There’s actually, right across the river in Jersey. If you’re uptown, so like, close to the Bronx and Harlem, just across that bridge, George Washington Bridge, the Palisades Park. It’s like kinda close, I don’t know what bus will take you there exactly.
LS: Mhmm.
AD: But, it’s close enough and you – it’s like, and you can walk. And it’s beautiful. It’s like you’re out the city.
LS: Yeah. But I’m hella deep in the Bronx.
AD: That’s true.
LS: Yeah. Brought my X – all day errday. Ha ha ha.
AD: Ha ha ha ha. Alright. So, we got some Go To’s this time around?
[3:42]
LS: Oh, we do have some Go To’s, oh I thought of it on the spot and then I just forgot it. Dammit. Oh, ok, I got it, I remember.
AD: Um, ok. I think I’m ready.
LS: Are you ready?
AD: I don’t…
LS: Alright, so it’s getting chillier, so, ok. What is this month? It is November. It’s November 25th. I know you don’t like me to say dates because (AD: Ha ha ha ha ha yeah!) we are a hot –
AD: We don’t know when this is gonna come out.
LS: Mess. Right, and we are saying the date for an interview that took place a couple of weeks ago that we had to redo. That took place a couple months ago. But it’s getting colder. It be hard to get out of bed in the morning, like. Mmm. It’s dark, it’s cold.
AD: Yes.
LS: Do you have anything that you – what’s your go to music? To like, I gotta get up, this is gonna…?
AD: Oh. I have an alarm. You know how sometimes you can change the tone?
LS: Mhmm.
AD: And I have golden by… oh my god!...what’s her name? She’s so great!
LS: Jill Scott.
AD: Jill Scott. Yeah.
LS: Wait, did we already do this go to? Cause I’m having déjà vu.
AD: Oh. Coulda been. Or we could have talked about it previously.
LS: Ok.
AD: Yeah. So I like Jill Scott’s “Golden” and I also, I think I, I have a…I can’t remember the other artist. But yeah, I need something that kinda has like. Cause like, my alarm will go off for the first 5 seconds before I touch it. I’m one of those people who like, can’t, let it, I just like – I hear it immediately. And so I only get like 5 seconds of the song in. So it’s gotta be like, straight into like an upbeat thing. So, or like, straight into like, something that’s mellow enough.
LS: Mhmm.
AD: That it’s like, oh, it’s time to get up.
[5:09]
LS: Do you snooze?
AD: I…will, but like, literally. I’ll listen, I’ll hear that noise, in about two seconds, I will touch it. I either press snooze or I press stop. But it does not go off.
LS: So, it’s a – you don’t know what you pressing, you just?
AD: I’m just pressing it cause it needs to go off.
LS: Ok. So maybe you’ll wake up, maybe you’ll sleep.
AD: Hopefully – yeah.
LS: Ok, I gotchu.
AD: How bout you?
LS: I – listen, maybe I’ll hit snooze once or twice. But, there has been moments in my life when I will, sleep in five minute incruments for like two hours. I will snooze the hell out of my phone.
AD: Do you sleep again? You can fall asleep?
LS: Oh, I hella fall asleep. Ha ha ha.
AD: Wow.
LS: Dream and everything. Five minutes.
AD: Wow.
LS: But, no, but I’m trying not to hit snooze now because I’m trying to have like a nice morning routine.
[5:53]
AD: What’s your song? That you go to?
LS: Oh, my go to right now? I am, Megan Thee Stallion. Every single morning, like –
AD: Every single morning?
LS: Yes.
AD: Ah ha ha.
LS: Club […].
AD: They’re like, it’s mornin. Ok!
LS: It’s mornin!
AD: Alright. Great, so. What are we talking about this week? Or this episode.
[6:14]
LS: Ok, so today, we are talking about Math Ed, Social Justice, AfroFuturism, and Black Futurity.
AD: Oh, that’s a lot of terms.
LS: It’s a lot of terms.
AD: What –
LS: Dope shit though.
AD: So, why this, all these array of topics? What is - what’s going on?
LS: Um.
AD: Look.
LS: Yes, I think it’s interesting how you are asking the questions and I -
(Both laughing)
LS: And I am doing the answering right now.
(Ha ha ha ha ha)
LS: Ok. So. These topics – well, I mean. So we talk about Abolition Science, and like, how do we imagine a future, and so what’s the world like, like – we need to get rid of a world in which the conditions that allow injustices to take place doesn’t exist. And so, we wanna look at the possibilities of math outside of what we know. So the building and creating part.
AD: Yeah. Yeah, I like that. And uh, I think that is part of this idea around – what we’re exploring about Abolition, is kind of like, what is an alternative? What are ways people already doing something that’s creating space to do a different kind of world?
LS: Right. Exactly. And so, we have a guest today, uh, Dr. Nathan Alexander. Could you tell us about Dr. Nathan Alexander?
[7:27]
AD: Yeah. So, Dr. Alexander is many things – um, and so one of the many accolades that – err, titles he has is as James King Jr. Institute Visiting Professor at Morehouse College. And he’s also the State Director for the Georgia STEM Teaching Fellowship. Which I think is pretty awesome, pretty amazing.
LS: Yeah. For sure. AD: So, he got his doctorate in math, Mathematics and Education at Columbia University. And then also did a lot of schooling at Teacher’s College and NYU. And so he as his background in, a Bachelor’s background in Pure Mathematics as well as Sociology. Um, he’s been working in mathematics communities and building mathematics communities in k-12 classrooms. Um, at post-secondary, overseas in adult education settings. A lot of different places in the South, in North Carolina, in New York, in Georgia. Just all over. He’s been a lot of different places doing a lot of different amazing, um, work. Yeah.
LS: What is pure mathematics though?
AD: So, as far as I understand –
LS: Mhmm.
AD: Mathematics, there’s like a – this realm, or this track called pure mathematics and there’s applied mathematics. And pure mathematics is supposedly this, the most kind of like, abstractive, understanding of different mathematical concepts, whereas applied mathematics would be kind of like, where mathematics is performed or operated in the world. So, like, engineers would do applied mathematics. Whereas pure mathematics is like, an – kinda philosophical theoretical kinda place.
LS: Oh. Ok. Gotchu.
[9:09]
AD: So, it’s like really, I think it’s even like yeah. It’s very advanced mathematics, if you can put the advanced in quotes.
LS: Got you.
AD: So.
LS: Ha ha ha.
AD: Whaaa...
LS: Ha ha. There’s something there – yeah I put that there.
AD: Whaaaaaaaaaat am I supposed to say next. Ha ha.
LS: Ok.
AD: I think he would say –
LS: Ok, so that’s a lie. I think I would say, so like, in his – bio that he has online. So that he has: “My goal is to change the world by improving education, knowledge of justice, and mathematics.” So, I like that, cause I feel that it really, when you, hear him talk – he’s so thoughtful. It’s like, his words, his work, his interaction just seems like so thoughtful.
AD: Thoughtful. Yeah, I wanna echo that. Cause his thoughtfulness. It’s kind of like his care for people in the world.
LS: Yeah.
AD: Is so like mathematics, mathematicians, can have this rap of being like removed from humans.
LS: Mhmm.
AD: you know like, human interaction in a way that’s kind of just about looking at the paper and looking at the board and what those concepts are, but I feel like he was really with us in this conversation.
[10:18]
LS: Yes.
AD: And with people.
LS: You hear it. You hear it. You hear it, you hear – he embodies like, I don’t know if I’m trying to – if I’m making sense. The shit that he says that he’s doing, you hear it in his voice.
AD: Yeah, and he cares. It comes through, so. We’re so excited for you to learn with us, with him. Um, in this interview.
LS: Alright, boom. Let’s do it.
[10:38]
[*Shift to pre-recorded session.]
AD: So, welcome to our next episode. We’re so delighted to have our next guest on today, on Abolition Science Radio. So, welcome Dr. Nathan Alexander.
Dr. Nathan Alexander (NA): Hello!
AD: Hi, how are you?
NA: Pretty good. How’s everybody doing today?
LS: We’re doing good.
AD: Yeah.
LS: Monday, in New York.
NA: Good.
AD: It is a – Monday in New York.
(Laughter)
LS: It’s nice here, the weather’s like mad nice today. Like really nice today.
NA: Oh yeah?
LS: What is it like down in Atlanta?
NA: It was raining a lot this weekend, but today was pretty temperate. Like, things were good. You know, light jacket to get through the day.
AD: Yeah. I heard that Atlanta has been uh, not fall weather for a long time.
NA: No. but you know, in the Southeast, you get a little bit of cold weather or a little bit of ice and everything shuts down.
LS: Ha ha.
AD: That’s true.
NA: And you get a little bit of sun and some heat and everybody’s in shorts.
LS: Ha ha ha.
AD: It’s either this crazy, yeah. Ha ha.
NA: Ha ha ha.
[11:37]
LS: Ok, so we like to start all of our interviews off by asking our guests what they are currently listening to. So if you could share with us and our audience, who you’re listening to or what you’re listening to?
NA: Yeah, so, I actually went to my Spotify to look at this. They have this new feature like, Repeat and Rewind.
LS: Yes, I love it!
NA: So, I was like, what have I been listening to on repeat. So apparently um, I listen to Solange a lot. So her new album.
(Mhmm)
NA: And I think at the top of the list is “Stay Flo.”
LS: Mhmm.
NA: You know it has that nice vibe.
LS: Mhmm.
NA: Um, and right under her is Pharaoh Sanders, “The Creator Has a Master Plan.” It’s this long song, it’s beautiful, a lot of instrumentation, instruments and – yeah, I recommend that song is actually really beautiful. I study to that a lot.
LS: Mhmm.
NA: Yeah.
AD: That’s pretty cool.
LS: Yeah. Thank you for sharing.
AD: Yeah. What is this repeat thing that happens on Spotify? Like an App, or whatever - ?
LS: It’s – no it’s like a, cause they create playlists based off what you listen to. But Repeat, Rewind – I forget. Rewind is like what you have been listening to in the past a lot.
NA: Mhmm.
LS: And then Repeat is like, what you’re listening to a lot currently.
NA: Yeah.
[12:56]
LS: You be like OOH I guess I am listening to this a lot.
(All laughing)
AD: Cool. Great, well thank you for sharing some of your current playlists, repeated playlists, and today we’re gonna be talking a lot with you about your work and some of your research. And we’re just gonna jump right in.
NA: Ok.
AD: And so you’re a Professor of Mathematics Education. Our listeners, just to kinda reiterate for everybody. So, in your research, you talk about these two big terms, called Afrofuturism and Black Futurity. What does that mean? What does that mean?
[13:28]
NA: Yeah, so – I think a little background on why I’m even thinking about Afrofuturism and Black Futurity. I was really struggling, uh, to fit into these confines of what academia wants us to do now and you know, know everything theoretically and all the theories, all the concepts, and as a teacher first – I spend most of my time in the classroom. So, I was thinking about how I can make use of those you know, scholars, like Derrick Bell, who talks a lot about like, Critical Race Theory. Um, and something that I like to do with my nephew, we read like, comic books. Or we watch a lot of – he watches a lot of cartoons. And so, I started to just notice that like, I enjoy really thinking deeply about like, race. Um, being, you know, as critical in terms of like it’s function in day to day life.
And so that’s where the Afrofuturism came in. When I thought about intersecting those two. From a really broad way, or broad lens, Afrofuturism is really just a way of integrating speculative fiction and science fiction and these themes in Afrocentrism. And, they’re used to really explore Black life and thought. You can do that from a historical, futurist lens, um, present lens, and as you do that, you’re able to sort of critique but also create. And that’s really something I found powerful with sort of the use of Afrofuturism.
[15:03]
And the Black Futurity, I think from an educational standpoint, it really allowed me to think about: why am I interested in understanding sort of, our conditions as Black people? Um, and as people of color, more broadly. And it’s just like, folks living in a society that struggles with our social relations. So, it really allows me to think about, you know, what do I envision in some future? And if we think about race at the center of that, what does that future hold for Blackness and Black people and Black culture and so forth.
[15:41]
LS: Yeah, thank you. I got really excited cause you said –
NA: Ha ha.
LS: Um, critique and create. And, I mean and you put them together. And could you just talk a little bit about the importance? I don’t know if that’s the word I’m looking for, the importance, or the need for these two things to be happening simultaneously or at the same time.
[16:00]
NA: Yeah, I feel like a lot of my failure with the critique part was, you know from a scholarly lens is you never really feel that you got it all. And that your critique sort of honors the elders who’ve done this work and also other scholars sort of right now. So part of the critique-ing for me anyway was sort of thinking through, what are other saying? What can I contribute? But often in academia, I feel like there’s a lot of critique-ing and to that second point, there’s not a lot of creating.
[16:33]
Now I was feeling that when I was finishing articles, or walking away from talks. Importantly, I was asking more questions than I thought I had answer, and I think the creating part sort of from a more artistic sort of lens, allowed me to sort of engage the opposite of what the critique part did. The critique-ing sort of gives me a lot of anxiety. Am I doing this right? I think the creating sort of helped to balance that out. Because it allows me to sort of say: what do I know? What do I feel comfortable with? And how can I create that in my vision of the world based on my experiences? Which allowed me to balance a bit of the two as I sort of think about myself from the scholarly standpoint of view.
[17:15]
AD: Great. Thank you for positioning that. I think that’s really important for like, not educators, you mentioned like, I guess from your experience as a researcher, but I think is that everybody practicing in society is - that’s like a, a really important way of kinda being in the world, you know the critique and then creating.
NA: Mhmm.
AD: So I really appreciate you sharing that piece. How do you feel like you connect these concepts of Afrofuturism and Black Futurity to mathematics education specifically?
NA: Yeah so, I was reading Derrick Bell’s original pieces, and what I was noticing was that a lot of the themes and storytelling. I was writing this chapter, it was focused on critical race theory, but they were sort of common themes of just, these conceptions of Black life, or more like the Afrolantica Awakening. You know, there was that island, and in the story and it had these special properties, and only Black people could sort of like, get to the island, get from the island, and, I started to think about, if Derrick Bell were around today, um, what would he have to say about math education?
And in saying that, I was also asking myself you know, what have others contributed and what is my contribution?
[18:37]
And I noticed that a lot of people hadn’t really thought a lot about what happens when we close the achievement gaps? What happens when we actually attend to identities in the math and science classrooms? Um, what then? You know, how will systems respond.
LS: Mmm.
NA: And I think Derrick Bell reminds us that, racism, sort of the semblance of like, racial realism, and the permanence of racism, so a lot of my answers were sort of continuing with like – how will systems find some new way to ultimately, produce these systems of injustice when we’re past these notions of Black culture? When these are tended to students as ways of being inside and outside of classrooms.
[19:25]
And so, I define Black Futurity as sort of relating to some renewed conception of Black racial existence. And so for me in Math Ed, it’s sort of saying, you know, in some future world – how will math be used? And, in terms of that usage, how will we position, you know, what we currently explain as like the Black communities? But in some global or interstellar world, you know, where does math – math education fit into that conversation? I think the chapter that I wrote about Critical Race Theory and Afrofuturism, sort of, for me is charting through the story that I created about what’s possible when we’re flying from planet to planet and it’s common that students just know math and they can use math in these ways to will their own visions. And so the main character, Deja, you know and her friend, they’re flying to different planets and they’re just using these complex equations. And so the question no longer is – are students achieving? So we sort of dealt with that already, like stories about the classrooms, they’re already talking through like how their teacher dealt, really acutely, with their identities and their needs, and now they’re dealing with some systems. And so I think for me, I’m connecting the concepts in Math Ed by sort of forcing us to say like, there’s some systems that we have to be attentive to and in this context, we’re looking at an interstellar system. We passed sort of a national identity, and now we’re looking at this global political system that is doing the same thing we see happening today. Systems are creating injustices, um, and they’re reproducing I think, notions of inequity – just to be as simple as possible.
AD: Cool, thank you for sharing that.
[21:11]
LS: Yeah. I don’t know – I don’t know, which piece to focus on. But I do wanna thank you for that question. How will systems respond? Because I don’t know if I’ve ever asked myself that. And I think it’s just such an important question for anyone who’s looking to make change or who wants to see change. So yeah, so just, thank you.
AD: I really, appreciated that piece in how you kind of like told – imagined this future, right, in this story, of Deja, and you know, I hadn’t really thought about the kind of like, fore fronting an interstellar kind of interplanetary relation. You know, as opposed to looking at like, nation state, as like the kind of like, almost basis of understanding social relations or human, you know, relations with one another. So, um.
NA: Mhmm.
AD: It kind of makes you, kinda have to force yourself into imagining beyond – really like, possibly like the discourse of the United States or whatever. So, I like that.
NA: Yeah.
AD: Forcing ourselves to kind of, like, think broader. Think longer. Think, you know, and do maybe something in relationship to that. You mentioned something about kindof underscoring, kind of like, thinking through and doing something different in terms of injustice. I guess I’m wondering how you see that broad look, that long look out, um, you know as a place, as a starting point or whatever point, a point. How does that like, inform what you think of and then what do you think of when you are – or how do you define social justice? Or what does justice mean to you?
[22:48]
NA: Yeah. I mean, one thing that I felt – to the first part of your question, that even in these critical narratives that I was reading, everyone wanted to save the United States at the end of the day. Right? And it was like, you know, the United States needs to do this. It was part of these critiques, right. (Mhmm.) For a lot of the future visions of justice were asking these things of the United States, and I’m like, when I read, you know, I’m hearing and seeing that, this is something that we know systems do. And the United States is that current iteration. And then when I attempted you know, to go global, and to talk about, I think in one iteration of the chapter, I was looking up and researching the International Monetary Fund, and I was thinking about the United Nations.
LS: Mhmm.
NA: And there was just a wealth of information, but the global perspective. You know, it was forcing me to still think about the United State’s role. When I removed that, and I started thinking about justice, I said, you know. I also had to think about time and technology. So, justice - thinking about you know, the long road of justice here, we’re probably gonna be flying in space. And we’re probably gonna be thinking about these imagined ways of living and, when I was defining social justice, it was a struggle because I wanted to define it in terms of like, our present day.
LS & AD: Mhmm.
[24:19]
NA: And I wanna go in these – these social relations to be this way. When I push them into the future, I found a really helpful piece that I used to use with my students when I was a teacher educator. It’s by Connie North, it was written in 2006, and she talks about delving into the substantive meaning of social justice. And, what I knew already was that social justice is contextual. And justice is contextual – there’s not, one form of justice for a particular community could mean injustice for a different community. And what’s emancipating or liberating for one group can actually cause more harm to another group. (Faint voices in background; then LS: Sorry) So, in sort of, the article she talks about these spheres of justice and relationships. I think at one moment, she’s dealing with the macro-issues, the micro-issues, this idea of redistribution. That part of justice requires that we think about equity and redistributing. And then also the idea of recognition, and how a lot of our identity research is focusing on recognition and recognizing what folks are going through, and who they are and what they bring to these spaces.
[25:36]
And then she talks about sameness and difference. And I think it was there in terms of justice that a lot of social justice and race, um, is really about sameness and difference. And how that’s become sort of culturally embedded. And so, I use sort of those three frames, those spheres when I think about social justice and like the macro and micro allows me to deal with the institutions that North talks about but also sort of the individual community based impacts that come as a result of those institutions. And then, what we often deal with is this sort of redistribution, we’re having people deal with like, the economics of injustice. And then the recognition part is like, the social and cultural aspects of injustice. Injustice making. And then the sameness and difference and how we’re supposed to contend with that moving forward.
And I think about these in math, you know, this is what a classroom looks like. So it also gave me a moment to think about my students. If I were able to, you know, go back in time and sort of reimagine my own experiences, what my math classrooms would have looked like.
And even beyond that, it’s like, what was their value and why? Like, why am I doing math? And how is math being used to forward, either my own individual sort of experiences or perspective? You know, some forms of justice for the community that I’m a part of? And then, more broadly thinking about the world. Like, how can math be used for more ethical reasons. And sort of creating a more just world.
And so, I’ve sort of been using those spheres a lot to think about these forms of like, futurity. Both locally, like my current classrooms and my current students. Um, thinking about in the near future, I have a nephew who’s ten. And I’m just imagining, you know, what do I want his experiences to be like, you know in 10 or 15 years. But also sort of this long hundreds of years or even thousands of years or eons in the future – what is math? So it allows me to also deal with that question about what is math and how can it be used in a way to, if we’re talking about justice, build a more just society? Or world, or you know, interplanetary system?
[27:42]
LS: Ha ha. Taking in everything that you’ve said, and so, I mean, math in and of itself – the way we teach it, the way we’re taught about math. It’s, you know, math is so logical, it’s so objective. And the way that you’re even sort of integrating, speculative fiction, bringing in Afrofuturism and Black Futurity, I feel like you’re creating, I don’t even know what - the rifts, fissures, cuts? To sort of break that open. And so,
NA: Mhmm.
LS: So what does this new math look like, and what does it do? If that, I don’t know if that makes sense outside of my head right now.
[28:19]
NA: Yeah, no. I mean, I’ve been asking this question and you know, I think one of the things I’ve had to come to terms with is that - there’s this talk I went to and there’s a book by Ronaldo Anderson called AfroFuturism 2.0, and I think in the book, they talk a lot about the foundations of Afrofuturism and Black Speculative Fiction. And it’s really creating something out of nothing, but also that nothing becomes our histories, our cultures, so we’re really noticing that what’s not centered now, it’s an opportunity to center those things that we desire to center. And I think in math, you know, a lot of my work has been leaning towards this concept of social justice math. And, if I were to sort of guess where this is going…cause sometimes I feel like I don’t fully know. Like, you know, I’m writing these stories about Deja, she’s visiting these planets, I’m working on the next iteration of her story, and some interesting stuff’s happening. (LS: Oh!) But I’m also asking myself, like, what does that mean for today? (AD: Mhmm. Hmm.) Like how do people use this in a very practical way? And I think my response to that, like social justice math. And so, when I – again, when I frame social justice, it’s sort of those relational processes. Macro, micro, redistribution, recognition, and the sameness difference. And this is something that I’m able to use in my classroom with my students. And so, from a very particular Afrofuturist perspective, um, when I’m in my classroom with students, you know, I have these summer programs that I work with – we’re asking these questions. We’re sort of saying, you know, what will math look like in 200 years?
[30:03]
LS: Mhmm.
NA: In a century? And what do you imagine you’ll be using math for? And I think it changes the question that students often ask in class, like, why do I need this? It sort of changed the question, and now they have an opportunity to create a thesis.
LS: Oh wow. Yeah.
NA: Yeah. So it’s like alright, so maybe we don’t have a good answer in terms of, how you would use this, but in what ways do you think you can wield this? And I think it sort of garners some interest there from students. They’re like oh well, what if I was able to do this? And I think Afrofuturism, and just future studies in general, I think it allows students to imagine these new worlds and so now you have middle school students and high school students and even my college students, sort of thinking about, you know, some of my favorite shows. Like Star Trek. These movies that come out that we all watch. I just saw Ad Astra, like two weeks ago, or a week ago maybe. And, it’s a beautiful sort of depiction of like, what it’s like to live in space and be in space and what life will be like. And I think when students can explore that, you’re providing new meaning to math.
[31:10]
I think in the very present day though, social justice math and teaching math for social justice, it allows students to ask that question but in a very local way. Like how can we use this math to help the people and ourselves and our communities that we see every day. And so, from a very practical way, with elementary and middle school students, we can ask about homelessness. And we can ask questions about, um, what would it mean for us to reconsider the redistribution of food – you know, souces. And what does that look like quantitatively?
Um, with students who are doing a little bit more advanced math – I remember I had students think about something that they were interested in just this last summer, it was the World Cup. And we were doing some graph and graph series. And I just asked them, you know, different countries have different forms of capital. And it was a conversation I’m not really sure about it – about Brazil, and Germany, or somewhere that has won the world cup the most times. (AD: Mhmm) And one of the students said, well this country has more money and they can really support their players. And that’s why they win. And so, we dealt with like, well what’s the most equitable way to create, you know, a tournament? Um, and how can we sort of use math to sort of understand, based on, a country’s Gross Domestic Product, or whatever these notions of, like economics that they use for, you know, global development. How can we sort of us math to understand equitable, you know, tournaments?
[32:40]
Um, and I think they’re just different ways for students to wield math in ways that’s more, to what I hope, and as I’m reading more about this, in more indigenous practices. So there’s ethnomathematics, uh, that’s a field that’s been around for quite some time. And I think it really centers students back to be more indigenous and cultural ways of thinking about math and science. And they also are more ethical ways of thinking about math and science. You know, a lot of what folks see as a career in mathematics, not in academia. Maybe working for the Department of Defense, they’re designing, you know, missiles. Maybe you’re working in a bank and you’re, you know, helping a bank, you know, make money. And so, you know, the kind of visions where students might think about using math for tend to relate to these notions of inequity. Um, and I think social justice math allows us to sort of, you know, track back and think about what Eric Gutstein sort of, who’s like the father of sort of, Social Justice Math in the United States, you know, he talks about the critical forms of math. These classical forms of mathematics and community forms. And I think that I build on those, really thinking like, where does race and futurity fit into these conversations?
[34:00]
LS: Mhmm.
NA: I know that was a mouthful, but.
AD: Ha ha ha.
LS: This is amazing. I’m feeling so inspired, and. I don’t like math!
(All laughing.)
NA: Yeah, a lot of – I’m still really working through, you know, at one point, my career, and it’s interesting that we’re having this call now, I got an email from some colleagues about a week and a half ago. And it caused me a lot of anxiety, I think when I was in graduate school, you know, I was bright eyed, bushy tailed – I had these ideas of what I wanted to use math for. And so my dissertation focused a lot on trying to use statistics to rethink notions of race, and my goal was to show people that – hey when we think about statistics and the achievement gaps and effect sizes, we’re making some statements about meanings the that are not true. And, I think I used a monolithic sample of students who identified as Black to show that like, there’d be variation within the sample.
I think, since then though, you know, reading, being in the real world, outside of school has really allowed me to sort of make sense of why am I doing this work? And, how does this work matter today? But also, what legacy am I leaving behind? And, I think most students understand math and most people, it’s like finding X or Y. Like, what’s X, what’s Y equal, what’s F of X? And I think, simply just shifting what that means to students, um, the types of questions that can be asked and answered with math, is sort of really powerful to me. And I sort of, that’s really focused outcome that I’m on right now. And I think Afrofuturism is helping me to sort of, begin to build different versions of how we might think about math as technology expands. As, you know, we just had the first all-female crew go into space, I think this past weekend, on Friday.
AD: Yeah, I saw that.
LS: Mhmm.
[36:05]
NA: And so we see, these different forms of identity and both, like space exploration collide and I’m seeing a lot of opportunity for us to reconsider like, what it means to do math and be a mathematician, and engage in mathematical practices.
[36:19]
LS: Yeah. I feel like you’re – so Tina Campt, who is Barnard, Barnard – I don’t know how you’re supposed to pronounce it –
NA: Yeah. Yes.
LS: Yes. She talks about Black Feminist Futurity, and I feel like you’re living that out in your work.
NA: Yes.
LS: What I’m particularly, just like, oh I’m so excited about this is, the language that you’re using. Like there is almost, there is no distinction between the present and the future. So, it’s like, we’re doing this in the present, but we have to think about the future and then bring it back to the present – which is, just really dope.
But then, I want to connect this back to when you said like, how will systems respond? I’m just curious, as you’re like, sort of, I don’t know like, breaking this Math Ed open and bringing these things in, like, I’m just imagining the type of responses you’re getting as you’re centering a worldview and a people that are usually pushed to the margins. What does it feel like or look like? How do you just keep doing the work so that it continues to grow in the face of the responses I’m sure you’re getting? [37:19]
NA: Really good question. Well first I’ll say, just engaging in art, and art-making (LS: Mhmm) has been, just helpful for my own mental health and, like, just social emotional health. Um, academia can really do a number on you. I remember right when I finished graduate school, um, I would say that like, grad school messes you up. So then all the ways that we’re trying to write ourselves to freedom, a lot of what I’ve realized since leaving graduate school is that, communities have been doing the work around this. And a lot of our scholarship is catching up to sort of the day to day practices of what communities are doing.
And so I think, I’ve really just been engaging, and so right now, I’ve been working with Atlanta Algebra Project. And we’re thinking a lot about, just what it means, you know, for youth workers to engage with young people in math classrooms. And so that’s taking me out of, you know, in a really clear way, this heady space of being the best scholar. Um, having the most impactful piece in the top journal to, really thinking about the young people in the classroom that I’m in in the mornings. And, why do I want them to do math and why do I want them to love math. And I think as I do it more, and sort of engage more to what I would say community work – and I think a lot of that came just from my time in the Bay Area. Living in West Oakland, learning a lot, it has really allowed me to uh, reconsider why we do scholarhip. And to remind myself that we’re all at different points on this pathway. And it’s allowed me to be a little bit more vulnerable and say that I’m still learning, I don’t know everything, and by creating art – and so I see this chapter as a short story, with definitions and citations, um, and it allows me to feel more comfortable with what I know right now, while also creating something for the future.
So, it’s allowed me to deal with that tension between the best scholar and really being someone that’s connected to, you know – what is it like when I go home with my family? And, what is it like when I’m with friends? With students in the classroom? It’s really allowed me to deal with that gray area, or what people in academia, I think would call research in practice. Because I think the connection between them has allowed me to become a little bit more comfortable as a scholar saying that we’re all sort of creating things that make sense to us now, but that we’ll continually be learning as time goes on. As more work comes out.
[40:05]
AD: I appreciate that answer.
LS: Yeah.
AD: I mean, I appreciate you kind of like, sharing that, because I think uh, both LaToya and I are in a place where we’re finishing, we’re working towards finishing.
LS: Ha ha.
AD: And you know, a lot of our conversations kind of, center, kinda like, why? What purpose, you know.
LS: Why am I doing this?
AD: Why am I writing? Who is the audience?
NA: Yeah.
AD: Um, how do I push kind of like, what brought us to, you know, we each had our own kind of reasons for why we wanted to study what we’re studying. Um, and so I appreciate you sharing, kind of, your own, you know, way that you’re engaging that murky space I think.
NA: Yeah, ha ha ha.
AD: I kinda wanted to, you know, also follow – not follow up, but I noted down the way in which you, talked about as mathematics, as Math Ed is engages like something creative, like, imagine what you want it to look like, in 200 years or whatever. That part of those, part of what’s interesting about that is that the questions that are connected to math are connected to the social world. It’s like, firmly planting the purpose of mathematics as, you know, not something that’s like – sometimes the notion of mathematics as being only abstraction, as only like, living and practiced above, kind of like, the Earth itself. Not to take the interstellar thing and that space.
NA: Ha ha ha.
AD: But like, just to have, to like, make it as connected to social life. And so, you know, you said that as a – that’s a way in which, like social justice or enactments or practices of interrogating injustice can happen. In one of your articles, you also talk about like, this, this term critical conversations, I think that’s the title of one of your articles. How would you say that, in connecting like, mathematical practices with social life, with the world, or the imagined future of a world, what are some critical conversations that you think are interesting or that come up? And how can math educators, like, bring those, that kind of critical conversating into their own practice?
[42:15]
NA: So that article, on critical conversations, so there’s a group of graduate students at UCLA, one of my close friends, who’s my sister, her name’s Alexis Cook, she’s amazing Public Health Scholar. I was with her, we went to this talk, and um, Fred Moten was there and we were just talking about Abolition. And, he made a comment, he said, I haven’t figured out how to save the world without saving white people.
LS: Oh.
NA: And, I remember that a lot of our conversations that weekend, but also a lot of just, work in justice and work in justice building and, conceptions of equity, was really centering, for me at the time, as a teacher educator, I thought that I was convincing um, mostly white teachers, white female teachers, that Black kids were not bad. And, if they could learn that. Then, there was a big problem there. So I removed myself from that position because it was, it was really affecting my own well-being. And I had to sort of, really, reconsider what types of conversations were really necessary for folks to learn. And I had to sort of position myself within that. So, those conversations that I also needed critical conversations to learn. And, so, you know, that piece really. I think for the math community. So the focus on undergraduate mathematics. What I hope it’s used for is to really allow, you know, I wrote that with two colleagues. We had a conference on social justice math and undergraduate classrooms. It should really give what I was learning faculty, predominantly white faculty in math departments, um, a framework to just sit down and have some honest conversations. Because what I was finding out is they were not reading these articles that critical scholars are writing. And often when they did read them, not only were questions arising, but a lot of critiques were coming up. Um, and there was really not a space for those critiques to be responded to by the author.
So, critical conversations, I think, it really asked folks to get multiple people in the room. And this is a big ask for someone in the math department. Um, if you sort of think about a college math department, you know, you’re interested in math majors, getting into PhD programs. Especially in undergraduate space, and often, those are a true minority of students taking math courses.
AD: Mhmm.
[44:56]
NA: And then your next sort of focus is students in STEM majors, and the last sort of folks that you’re think about, for a lot of these folks in math departments, are students who have had really bad experiences in math, students that have not performed well in these traditional ways, and that, people aren’t thinking about those students. And so, what I’m hopeful, you know, in terms of that particular piece. And we just had another conference this past summer where, some faculty returned to the second iteration of this conference, and so what I’m hoping that these critical conversations move people to, is to not just use the language, because part of what we describe in that article is you can use the language – people can use the term intersectionality and use the term justice, or use the terms that would generally have us think that they’re practicing these things in the day to day, but the critical conversations become sort of a part of like, the day to day life of the department in math. Once you get together, you’re really talking about race and you’re talking about systems, you’re talking about students, and how students are impacted by these systems, you’re really charging your colleagues, and this is something that’s very difficult. I’ve found this very difficult. With just, dealing with how their practices in classrooms are hurting students. You know, and asking them to rethink, why do we want them to learn this math and rule? And how are you explaining and helping and aiding them to get to wherever they’re going?
So those critical conversations I think, they ask people to get into a room and bring up some topics that would normally not be brought up. And I think in the article, we focused a lot on, race, and how race impacts, you know, those experiences in undergraduate math spaces, which we really haven’t dealt with I think. Um, as a field, really well.
[46:55]
AD: Thanks. Thanks for that, explaining that a bit further.
NA: Yep.
LS: Sorry, processing.
AD: That’s ok.
LS: Ha ha.
NA: Ha ha.
AD: We’ve been talking about –
NA: It’s –
AD: Actually like, as we’ve taken, what, like our guests are so amazing – I feel like, to just be really present. I always like, struggle with this. I’m like – OK! Let’s move, like what do I wanna say, because you’ve offered us so much. Ha. Um.
NA: Ha ha.
AD: And so, Toya’s really good about.
LS: My processing time, like, I gotta go back to the beginning. Ha ha ha.
NA: Ha ha.
AD: I have a question cause usually afterwards, it’ll be like, man, I wanna ask this as a follow-up or something.
NA: You know, my grandmother passed last summer. And, if there’s anyone in the world that I learned to love from, it was her. Cause I felt that you know, my family, we’re – most people’s families, you know, ok, we’re just like, all over the place, and, I love my crazy family. I’m a part of that and I think my grandmother showed us that, you know, no matter how people make you feel, no matter how people may treat you sometimes, that love is the way that you bring yourselves back into the family.
And, to all the work that we’ve talked about, you know, when it comes to whatever we may think of, in terms of like, our scholarship – Afrofuturism, Black Futurity, Critical Conversations – I think it’s in the spirit of us really being more vulnerable. Um, trying to find ways to (…) a student. And as you do that, I think, to what I was saying earlier, you get to critique, but you also have to create. You have to become a part of – so thank you for sort of, noting those words earlier. Because I think that really captures kind of the essence of what I’m hoping to do. And I don’t know if I’m getting things in terms of the essence of how they should be captured, but I think that’s part of, what my grandmother taught me, you know, this is what practice looks like. You sort of get better at things, as you do them more. Um, and I think that sort of really, is a metaphor for mathematics. In terms of its traditional ways of thinking. Yeah, so. It’s really mostly a learning experience. It’s been a really nice way to, I guess, be an academic. Or, be a scholar. Cause I really like, identify as a teacher. I’m a teacher first.
LS & AD: Mhmm.
NA: And I think, teaching, for me is, where any scholarship would come from. And, as I attach more to my teaching, it’s been a lot easier to, consider myself someone – I don’t know, people call, teacher-scholar, scholar-researcher, scholar-practitioner, um, yeah. It’s really allowed me to like, slow down a bit.
[49:39]
LS: So that, for me, brings up this idea of teaching with compassion. And, you’re probably tired maybe, of talking about it, or – ha ha ha ha
NA: Ha ha ha ha.
LS: You already know what I’m about to ask. Ha ha.
NA: Yesss. Ha ha.
LS: So you went, you went viral, in a good way, in a very good way.
NA: Yes.
LS: Of you in class, and one of your students brought their child, so that your student can focus on their work, you held the child throughout the class, so, you don’t have to talk about that particular moment –
NA: Thank you.
LS: But if you could just talk about what it means to teach with compassion? And within that, because, like, how do you set boundaries and limits to be able to sustain compassionate teaching because it’s, yeah. Ha. That’s my question.
[50:25]
NA: Yeah, teaching with compassion. I think, in a really simple way, it’s being human. It’s sort of those moment, when we’re alone, or we wake up in the morning, we’re in the bathroom, we look at ourselves in the mirror, we’re dealing with our, without all the identities and all the layers that the world requires that we wear when we go outside. Um, I think that moment is representative to, really seeing another human being for who they are. So, I could have chosen in that moment, to say, this is a math classroom. You’re a student, I have the power here. But I think part of my own pedagogical style is to create a community where we all have agency. I always tell my students that this chalk is as much yours as it is mine. And I think part of opening up that door is to say, we take care of each other in here. And, part of you know, what comes to mind with teaching, and to talk about compassion, is sort of – what’s compassionate to me from my students, to say hey, if I’m not explaining something well, um, you guys should call me out. And maybe there’s someone else here that can explain that better.
And when you do that, I think students get a voice in the classroom that they’re not really used to. Especially in math. And they get to bring their full selves. You know, who they are within and outside of school. And, I think compassion is really just, stopping and asking yourself, like, what’s urgent and what’s important, but what’s also just human, in this moment.
[52:00]
LS: Mhmm. Thank you! That also, I think, drives home just your whole approach to math in general. I think when you said, teaching with compassion is about seeing people for who they are. I think math and science largely, you know, we don’t see our students.
NA: Yeah.
LS: For who they are. It’s like, this is what we say science is so we see people who fit into that box, but I think you’re sort of breaking it open and like, it doesn’t have to be that way, like. Math can shift and adjust and be accommodating.
NA: Yeah. Oh, really good, yeah.
LS: To different people. Because it can serve – it can do different things than what we’ve been generally using it for.
NA: Mhmm.
LS: And so I’m wondering if you’ve seen, shifts in your students and your teaching this way. Specifically, for students who come and like, teach, already what you said, um, I’m not a math person, or had a bad experience. Are there shifts that you see with your approach?
[52:54]
NA: I mean, I think that moment captured what I’ve been trying – so I’ve been teaching for about 15 years, and you know, my first teaching job which was middle school boys in Brooklyn. And, I’ve taught in a lot of different spaces. And I think, in terms of my current context at Morehouse, I do feel that, you know, students are really understanding the value of math in a way that allows them to say, like, I don’t get this. I wanna get it. And we’re able to sort of explore why they need to get it. They wanna pass a class, get some credits. Or they wanna become a math major, or a STEM major. In terms of shifts within our classroom, in our classroom spaces, I’ve always worked to build, you know space for me to just come and be honest. And so, you know, some days my students of color, ask them, you know, I like feedback in the class, so I’ll say, you know, so how was today’s lecture? And they’ll say like, well, we didn’t really understand cause you were sort of going fast. And in the next class, I’ll be like, you know some folks told me I was going a little fast last class, like, let’s slow down a little bit. And then, everyone’s like, yeah, we don’t know what was going on with you yesterday, but.
LS: Ha ha ha.
NA: Ha, you were speeding through, and I was like, well this is what I thought I was doing, I was trying to get through the lecture notes but I see that this actually affected you all in this way. And that is a moment of community building and I think when I open myself up in those ways, um, students, they come to class and they open up. And, with students, a lot of teachers say how are you doing today? It’s actually really being interested in how they’re doing. And not just, asking that question because class is about to start. And so I think now, as a result of sort of this moment, but just sort of largely in terms of like, our classroom spaces. Students have built a learning community, in a lot of ways. I think that’s strengthened over the last year, in the last couple of months since that happened. Because I’ve really become attentive to, um, how, and why these learning communities matter. Especially in like, undergraduate math because that transition that students make from high school to college is real. And a lot of times, it’s confusing, it’s rigid, and it’s nice I think. Cause I sort of think back to my younger self, my 17 year old self, there was really no one, my first year, to sort of help me through that transition as a math major. Um, and it was only until my sophomore, junior year, Sue Goodman, who’s retired now at UNC Chapel Hill, but she sort of gave me that space, to come into her office and say like, I’m struggling. And, she allowed me to be Nathan. And I wanna be that for my students.
[55:34]
AD: This is not necessarily, I mean it’s kind of a follow up question – but I’m just thinking of –
NA: Yeah.
AD: Teaching with compassion as, you know, you’re really bringing, in a lot of the conversation, the different ways in which relational processes, like the way you relate with students, with curriculum, with the department, like, in so many different iterations, I feel like you’ve brought this up. And, I think about, you know, in our practices of wanting to really do that with our students, really do that in any spaces of learning, any contexts of learning. And then how mathematics is, the testing, ha, place, is the place of assessment. And I don’t know, you know, for myself, I was teaching a mathematics course and I found I wanted to bring forward like, a lot of the things that you’ve talked about, or, put as like, teaching with compassion. And then, I also had an exam. You know, I wasn’t in charge of (NA: Yeah) in an adjunct position. How do you see the ways we can push as researchers, as scholars, as educators, like the way that we position assessment in mathematics? In the same – yeah, I feel like it’s –
NA: I really love this question.
[56:46]
LS: Ha ha.
NA: I really love this question. I have some answers and my students seem to get down with it. I think it’s been working for a couple years for me, and so, when it comes to assessment in math. A lot of students are assessed for what they know today, when the exam is, right.
(Mhmm)
NA: And we don’t think about, the long game, that students need time to develop their ways of knowing and being. As they do with their identities, same thing when they’re learning. So I’ll give you an ex – sort of, what happens in my classroom, and I’ll talk about assessment sort of more broadly, so in my classroom, we have about 4-5 assessments, and they are exams. But from the beginning, I tell students, I’m interested in sort of like, your learning trajectory. Everyone’s coming from different places, and so these are undergraduates. And, if you don’t do well on Exam 1, that’s ok, because there’s future assessments that are gonna allow you to showcase, sort of what you’ve learned and we’re gonna help you get to that place.
And so, one of the things that I do is I drop the two lowest exams. To really show students that, life says we have our bad days, our bad exams, we have anxiety, um, these things are real. And it really I think centers for them that, you know, I don’t really care if you have this by the end of August, or end of September. You know, what is the goal here? And I think it just sort of allows them to relax a bit and actually engage in learning. And then at the end of the semester, I say you know, based on this final exam, cause I don’t have control over the Final Exam, you know, it’s really a showcase of how much you’ve grown over the course of the semester. So I’ve spent a lot of time, working with students individually and in small groups on sort of, different outcomes and learning outcomes. I’m very transparent with them about where we’re going, why we’re going there, what the expectations are, and what department on the college level. And when I do that, I think students are just clear about, alright this is where I am now and this is where I need to be by November, before Thanksgiving break, or um, Thanks-Taking break. And I think it really allows students to see the trajectory of their learning. And I replace those two dropped exams with their final, with their fourth or fifth exam, and there’s a conversation there about you know, what do you feel is like an accurate representation of how much you’ve grown over the semester. So learning and assessment becomes about growth, and not about whether you got the same amount of questions right as the person that’s taking the exam next to you.
[59:30]
Um, and that’s something that a lot of students don’t experience, in math. And I think assessment broadly, an important part of learning. And I think people need benchmarks when they’re on their way and I think in math, you know, because so much of math is sequential and depends on itself in it’s classical form, um, I think we just really have to consider, or reconsider like, why are we assessing students. And, what the purpose of those assessments are? And, if I were to have a say in terms of what this looks like in undergraduate space, you know, I think we wanna have some new expectations around STEM majors versus non STEM majors. Math majors versus non math majors. Um, and the current environment. If I could change it all in some future, it would look very different. But I think we do have to do a bit of more differentiation, and this is just what, I think people in k-12 have to do every day. Right, you have to be attentive to the different needs of different students because we all. have differences and we all have to respect those differences in a learning space, and I think what shocks a lot of students and also a lot of people when they get to college, is they think there’s one expectation. You either pass this exam, or you don’t.
AD: Right.
NA: Um, it doesn’t really open the space for students to say, hey I’ve had like 12 years of like, not so good math experiences. But you’re expecting me to do the same thing as someone who maybe had really different math experiences from me. And so I think assessment needs to look more, or it needs to be attached more closely to, sort of, what and how we’re redefining learning. I think that the learning sciences is helping us to think through, like the multiple components of what it means to learn. And I think if we do that, you know, I think learning sciences and sort of thinking about learning as a process, allows us to really make sense of like, what can assessment and math look like in a way that is welcoming and understanding and forgiving.
Um, math is not very forgiving from an assessment lens and I think I try to make sure that students understand that like, it’s ok if you don’t do well on an exam. Like, I haven’t done well on all my exams and I’m in front of you still. So I think them knowing that earlier, it allows them to keep going on their own visions of their futures.
[1:01:53]
AD: Thank you so much.
NA: Yeah.
AD: I feel like I want, you know, when I – if I get to a point where I teach another course like this, I definitely wanna be really intentional like you just, so thank you for sharing all of that. I’m gonna re-listen.
NA: It’s tough, but its necessary. Ha ha ha ha.
AD: Sorry…So the assessment piece, I feel like is, I’m so glad that you like, went full in, on like, kind of like explaining a position about it. And how to utilize it and to not be like, oh, you know, be done with the forms of assessment, but growth and the process, learning as a process. And uh, I think the challenge for me always has been, how do I capture something that’s always fluid? And in a way that’s like, promoting people to continue asking the questions.
NA: Yeah.
AD: You know, kind of like the way that you’ve positioned like, what do you want it to be? Like always like, so to have assessments like be that one, other place, where that is nudged a little bit. Ok, where do you want this knowledge to be, this practice to be?
NA: Yeah. I mean, it shows up in so many ways and my ideas of assessment have grown. You know, there’s this really cool app and back when I was in New York and in living in the Bay, I would do sort of, meditation from time to time. Like, there’s this place in the Bay, called the East Bay Meditation Center, and I would go there from time to time. But there’s an app now, it’s; called the Liberated App, I’m not sure if y’all heard of that before. But on your phone, it’s an app for people of color, and there’s a lot of different dharma talks, and meditation, self-guided, um, guided meditations, in a lot of the talks, they talk about the process of learning how to meditate. And learning and learning and learning. And I think, as a result of listening to those talks and engaging in those practices, this really changed how I think about different learning in general. And that, a lot of education and even our interactions with people, um, that we don’t really allow people to learn and make mistakes. I think we have, a really big cancel culture – In education. So, I’m not talking about Twitter, or – I think teachers often engage in this cancel culture. So like, if a student doesn’t do well on a first exam, that teacher sort of carries that through the rest of the semester. Like, as if the student’s not capable. And it actually sort of informs how the teacher treats the student, how they interact with the student, what opportunities they give the student, and I found myself doing that.
So, I see a student with really, doesn’t have a lot of practice in their exams were representative of what we know is like, really bad experiences in math and not really having an opportunity to learn. But I often carried that idea of the student through the semester. And when I started to remove that, I know there was this one student who failed my course twice. And it wasn’t something that I was proud of, giving students a failing grade, but part of those conversations were about, sort of sticking to it, working together, being a part of the community. And the moment that I removed this idea of this student, they started to show up more and do better. And I realized that it was more about me than it was about the student. And more about how I was interacting with the student, and how my conversations with the student, sort of affected their ability to show up. And, in a lot of ways, I had to sort of cancel that student’s expectations of themselves because I didn’t expect them to do well.
That’s been, you know, really important part about, I think just meditating and, that app sort of helped me do that and that’s something I would recommend to teachers because so much of our lives are dealing with students and dealing with ourselves, and dealing with curricular issues, dealing with assessments, and I think when we slow down, we become a bit more forgiving to ourselves. And it allows us I think to show up for our students.
[1:05:14]
AD: Yeah, thank you.
NA: I just felt like saying that. Ha ha ha.
LS: Thank you.
AD: I feel like it’s super important for all of us to hear, and yeah so thank you.
NA: Yeah.
LS: I can probably sit here and talk to you for like the rest of the night, but…
NA: Ha ha ha ha.
LS: We’ve taken up so much of your time, and so –
NA: I’m down for it!
LS: Ha ha ha.
AD: Ha ha ha ha.
LS: Do you have any upcoming projects or contact information that we can share with our audience? How do we take a class with you? Like, what?
AD: Ha ha ha ha.
LS: Ha ha ha.
NA: Yeah, so, I am working – so, I had mentioned this earlier. So, for folks that have read that chapter about Deja, that sort of creating a while. Very like, foundational, but I’m working on the next iteration - some really cool stuff’s happening. They’re in the middle of space and making some tough decisions. That piece is sort of throwing us into the future, but I’m also learning to think more historically. So there’s a chapter that I’m working on right now on uh, it’s called A Legacy of Literacy in Mathematics. It’s really dealing with the South Carolina Negro Act of 1740. And how, enslaved Africans were not allowed to read, write, and get together and grow food or earn money. And I’m sort of attempting to – it’s been a little difficult, so I’m not, you know, I’m learning how to be a science fiction writer.
But it’s dealing with, what would the case be if that law were never instituted. Yeah, so what would have happened in terms of. We have to talk about Benjamin Banneker, one of the early math people, and it’s like, what would have happened if we removed those constraints.
I’m also working with a few colleagues on, just understanding like, the numbers around Black teachers. Black male teachers and really getting us as men, cisgender men to really think about how we show up in classrooms. And so that’s been sort of a project for me, and sort of some of the teachers that I’m working with, um on understanding conceptions of intersectionality and how we can become, I think, better people sort of in the world, and thinking about, like, gender and math and sort of like, from a faculty standpoint. I work with a lot of young men, now, sort of, really using the moment of math to think about like, these intersecting identities.
[1:08:46]
Um, contact information, I’m on twitter, although I don’t use it as often as @ProfessorNaite, and Professor, and then Naite is spelled N-A-I-T-E. And, in terms of supporting the work, I think there’s some really great things happening around the country. The Algebra Project is a really awesome, um, organization. And I think Bob Moses, and the young people’s project that sort of came out of the Algebra Project. So, I would tell people to sort of find you know, local centers and community centers and really push ourselves to engage in math more with folks. So I think supporting the expansion of math practices in your community is something that’s very simple. You can go volunteer at like a Boys and Girls Club, or at your local community center – find some folks around you and, I’m always welcome to – or happy to, help facilitate some of that. There’s a lot of math educators that are willing to facilitate that.
[1:09:46]
And the – recommended readings, or..?
AD: Anything you’d like to share.
NA: Can I spend some time there? LS: Mhmm.
AD: Yeah. Contact, readings, ways people can support. Yeah. Recommended things people should read.
NA: Yeah, I would tell people to pick up that book. So it’s by Julius Davis, and Christopher Jett are the editors. And, it’s where that chapter on Deja is, but it’s Critical Race Theory and Math Ed. Yeah, I think that’s probably what I would tell people to take a look at. It has some really good work by some amazing people. Um, sort of that are, people that I look up to. So yeah, it’s uh, Critical Race Theory and Math Ed. It just came out in April of this year [2019]. 2019.
AD: Thank you so much again! For, talking with us, for sharing with us, um, I feel like this was a great learning experience. So I.
LS: Yes.
AD: Really deeply appreciate it.
NA: Ha ha. It was a learning experience for me too, so thank you all for having me. Yes, to have to continue the work and learning from other folks, so, thank you so much for the podcast. It’s really amazing and I appreciate so much this – what you all are doing with Abolition Science podcast. It’s really really valuable. It’s something that we need. So, thank you.
AD: Aw, thanks.
LS: Aww, I know. Aww!
(All laugh.)
LS: Thank you! Have a good night!
AD: Have a great night.
NA: Alright y;all, have a good night and a rest of the week, ok!
LS: Mhmm.
AD: You too.
LS: Bye.
AD: Bye.
NA: Bye.
[1:11:10]
[♫ Music begins playing.]
[1:11:50]
[Music stops.]
AD: So, you just listened to, a bit from Solange’s song, Stay Flo, from her album “When I Get Home”, which is a 2019 piece.
LS: Mhmm.
AD: Uh, what’d you think?
LS: Dropped on the last day of Black History Month, 2019. Blessed us.
AD: Yeah. I like how, Dr. Alexander kind of, put this out as his, I think you asked like, what his recently played list. Or I think he talked about what’s on his Spotify.
LS: Mhmm.
AD: And the vibe from that song was kinda like, what I get from, Dr. Alexander.
LS: Yeah. Ha ha.
AD: It’s like, very calm, very kind of like, (clears throat) – relax.
LS: Vibey. Relax, chill.
AD: Yeah, totally.
LS: It’s upbeat.
AD: I’m like, oh I get it. I get why you. Anything come up for you as you were hearing it? Or thinking of the conversation?
LS: Yeah, I mean, Solange, I think, I mean her music, especially the last two albums. She talks about explicitly, like it’s for Black people. And I think she imagines a lot in her music, so there is this futurist, futurism, futurity, whatever the word is, um, that you get in her music that definitely connects to the work that he’s trying to do in math.
AD: Mhmm.
LS: I think particularly the, I mean, we listened to “Stay Flo” but, I mean, yeah, I don’t know, just listen to the whole album. If you haven’t.
AD: Already.
LS: Already. Um, but I’ve never – I would love to see her perform. I’ve never seen her perform. And so, we were talking about his thoughtfulness and the thoughts that he put into the work that he does. If you really listen to like, Solange’s lyrics, they’re all just, they mean something. Like, she thought about those words and putting them together. You know?
AD: I like those connections.
LS: Mhmm.
AD: Nice. So…
LS: That is our show. And so, we will see you next time.
AD: Bye!
[1:13:40]
[♫ Musical outro.]
AD: Check us out at Abolition Science [dot] org, where you can sign up for our newsletter.
LS: And follow us on Instagram @abolitionscience and also follow us on Twitter @abolition_sci
AD: See you soon!
