Social Justice Mathematics & Teacher Activism
In this episode, we speak with Assistant Professor of Mathematics Education at the University of Pittsburgh, Dr. Kari Kokka, on her work in mathematics education. Learn about trauma-informed care and radical healing and how she connects it to mathematics education.
Go To: [Spotify Top Five for 2019]
Toya’s- Burna Boy, Megan Thee Stallion, Ari Lennox, Solange, Jul’s
Atasi’s- Ani DiFranco, La Santa Cecilia, Burna Boy, Beyoncé, Jul’s
Dr. Kokka’s current song: Berimbau Chorou by Mestre Recruta
Dr. Kokka recent articles:
Kokka, K. (2019). Healing-informed social justice mathematics: Promoting students’ sociopolitical consciousness and well-being in mathematics class. Urban Education, 54(9), 1179-1209.
Kokka, K. (2018). Radical STEM Teacher Activism: Collaborative Organizing to Sustain Social Justice Pedagogy in STEM Fields. Educational Foundations, 31, 86-113.
Mentioned on the Show:
TED talk with Dr. Nadine Burke Harris
Creating Balance in an Unjust World
Transcript (please excuse errors)
[Music Intro ♫]
LaToya [LS]: Hey listeners! Welcome to Abolition Science Radio, we’re your hosts. I’m LaToya Strong-
Atasi [AD]: And I’m Atasi Das. We’re here to talk all things science and math and their relationship to-
LS: Colonialism
AD: Oppression
LS: Resistance
AD: Education
LS: Liberation
AD: And so much more.
[ ♫ Music fade out.]
[0:25]
AD: So excited to have this episode today. What are we talking about?
LS: We are talking about social justice mathematics and teacher activism.
AD: Soo before we talk about our topic this week, or is it this episode? Uh, we usually do this thing called Go-To. I’m gonna..
LS: You have a Go-To?
AD: Yeah, yeah yeah.
LS: Lay it on us.
AD: Well, it’s officially 2020.
LS: It is, ha ha ha.
AD: Which is wild.
LS: Because this episode was recorded…
AD: Not in 2020.
LS: Not, at all in 2020 y’all.
(Both laughing)
AD: But, if there is something that you were listening to or that…
LS: Your Spotify Unwrapped! Do you have Spotify?
AD: I do have Spotify Unwrapped…oh yeah! What was it?
LS: According to Spotify, what was your Go-To? What was your Spotify…girl, where’s your phone? Ha ha ha.
(Pause)
AD: Let me look. Ha ha ha. Hey look, we don’t even have to remember things. Memory…what’s memory when you have saved emails. Ha ha ha.
LS: Spotify. Do the other apps do this? Like Apple Music and Tidal?
AD: I don’t use those, so, maybe?
LS: Ha ha ha ha ha. I feel like we would have seen posts if they did.
AD: Oh yeah, possibly.
LS: Ok, so maybe they don’t. So, if you have Spotify, and you wanna share your Spotify Unwrapped wit us?
[01:44]
AD: Yeah.
LS: We wanna see it. Ok, where is it at now? Also, I think they did it too early.
AD: Do you think so?.. oh yeah, it’s true.
LS: When did they do it?
AD: It was early December.
LS: Yeah.
AD: I’m trying to unload it –
LS: They have a few more weeks.
AD: Download it right now. So, Unwrap it. It’s not on! Here we go…Try Again. Decade Unwrapped…Decade Unwrapped?! Let’s go back.
LS: Oh, made for you. Ok.
AD: Oh, you went into your thing?
LS: Go to home. Go to your home.
AD: Ok.
LS: Oh wait, lemme see…Oh, iPhone.
AD: Is that..
LS: I don’t know how an iPhone works.
AD: It looks different.
LS: It looks very different. I don’t know nothin’ about no iPhone.
AD: Ok, ok. What does your say?
LS: And, so when you go to search, you hit that ‘Made for You’.
AD: Ok, made for me, ok. Search, ‘Made for You’.
LS: Oh wait.
AD: Wooow, it didn’t really wanna open it. Ha, so. (Sigh). Ok, so I remember a couple things off of mine. I had like this mix of both Folk and Afropop.
(Both laughing)
AD: Folk and Afropop come up. My top artists, ha, were…
LS: Ha ha.
AD: It’s such a weird mix. It’s Ani DiFranco, La Santa Cecilia, Burna Boy, Beyoncé, and Jul’s.
LS: Nice!
AD: It’s such a mix. Ha.
LS: You are like –
AD: All over the place. Ha.
LS: I think you lowkey copied me. But -
AD: Ha ha ha ha.
(Both laughing)
AD: I was tapped into your account.
[03:13]
LS: I’m gonna try to do this from memory. Because I – where did it go? Once I showed you how to do it…Oh! Wrapped 2019, there we go. Ok, top artists.
AD: Mhmm.
LS: Number one was Burna Boy. Two was Megan Thee Stallion. Three was Ari Lennox. Four was Solange. I dead was just like, what comes after three.
(Both laughing)
LS: Five was Jul’s.
AD: Cool.
LS: So well rounded. Sometime I just want a vibe, sometime I just wanna do other things.
(Both laughing)
AD: Yeah. I kinda thought it was interesting, this Spotify Unwrapped. Cause, uh, sometimes it’s hard to think about like, what did I just do this last year? What did I listen to? But, I appreciated it. Thanks.
LS: Yeah. My alarm is linked to my, is linked to Spotify. And it’s always Jay Rock “Win”, and so. You know how they do that like playlist with all your top songs. Like this, I like this song but it’s skewed.
AD: Oooh. Wait, so you’re saying that when you wake up in the morning, it goes straight to your Spotify and plays the same song?
LS: The alarm. Yeah. The alarm is Jay Rock, “Win”. [Voicing tune: bwre bre bre br bow].
[04:16]
AD: Oh, it does have all the data. Look at this. Being critical with our data, and our algorithms.
LS: Ha ha haha, data!
AD: With our data.
LS: Someone – yes!
AD: Ha ha ha.
LS: Ok. I was about to say what people were saying at, on Twitter, but let’s not go there.
AD: Ok.
LS: Alright. Those were our Go-To. According to Spotify, for our entire year. Those are our top five artists.
[04:34]
AD: 2019. Yeah, that was pretty cool. And now we’re into 2020! So exciting. Whole new decade. Whole new year. So, what are we talking about today?
[04:44]
LS: Today we are talking about social justice mathematics and teacher activism.
AD: And so why this topic? Well we’re thinking about, how do we build teacher activism, but in mathematics education in a sustained way so it’s not kitchy or just some trendy stuff. So, we wanted to explore this topic a little bit more. Toya, who is gonna help us talk – learn about this or, explore this?
LS: So, today we have Dr. Kari Kokka. Or, I mean, not today, but when we had her.
(Both chuckle)
LS: Who is an Assistant Professor of Mathematics Education in the Department of Instruction and Learning at the University of Pittsburg.
[05:20]
AD: So Dr. Kari Kokka, she has done a lot of stuff. Some of which includes, she was a math performance assessment development and research associate at the Stanford Center for Assessment, Learning, and Equity from 2013-2016. She has her doctorate from Harvard Graduate School of Education, a Master’s in Stanford Teacher Ed, and a bachelor’s in Mechanical Engineering. So, she has a lot of math experience.
LS: Mhmm.
AD: But prior to her doctoral studies and just, becoming a doctor, she was a math teacher for a long time and a math coach in New York City at Vanguard High School. And was a part of a lot of different initiatives. And she’s also – this is really cool – a co-founder of the Math and Education Social Justice Conference, called “Creating Balance in an Unjust World.”
LS: Which we are going to.
AD: We are going to. It’s been going on for a number of years. I think, I might be wrong about this, but maybe 2007. Um.
LS: So over 10.
AD: Yeah, definitely over 10 years.
LS: Yeah.
AD: It’s a pretty cool conference.
LS: Mhmm.
AD: But we’re excited to talk to her. And we’re excited to share it with you.
[06:33]
[Recording transfers to Pre-recorded.]
AD: So welcome. Thank you so much for joining us, Dr. Kari Kokka. Ha ha ha ha.
LS: Yay! We are so excited!
AD: We’re so excited that you’re -
KK: Thank you for inviting me, I’m very excited!
AD: Yeah! Can you share with our listeners, where you’re calling from and if there is, and what – kinda soundtrack or artist are you currently listening to? This moment.
KK: I am calling in from Pittsburg, PA. And, right now, I’m actually listening to an album called Berimbau Chorou by a friend of mine, Mestre Recruta Who is a capoeira mestre, teacher in the Bay Area, California.
AD: Ok, wow. So, can you tell us a little bit. In capoeira, for folks who don’t know – it’s a martial arts. Right?
KK: Mhmm. Yeah. It’s an AfroBrazilian martial art, yeah.
AD: So what would the music - what does that sound like? What do you doing your –
KK: Ooh. Yeah. That’s a really good question. So, the berimbau is the stringed instrument with the gourd. And that is the instrument that leads the roda, which is you know, you play capoeira in a circle. And the thing that I really love about capoeira is that not only do you learn how to do the movement, but you also learn all of the instruments and you learn how to sing. Um, so it’s really a great kind of like, multi-ability art form to participate in.
[08:04]
AD: Wow! I didn’t know about the – I’ve only seen folks playing capoeira as like, with their bodies. But that’s so interesting that you use your voice and other aspects as well. That’s cool.
LS: Yeah.
KK: Yeah. Yeah.
AD: Cool.
KK: So yeah.
LS: Ha. Sorry, so, I’m laughing – I was recently on a date with a person, and we were like, let’s go dancing. So we’re like, did not find the dance place we wanted but we ended up at this other place and we’re like dancing and then they just like, start doing… capoeira. And I’m just like ha ha –
KK: Oh, wow!
LS: Yeah, I was like, I wasn’t ready! I wasn’t. I was not ready. But it happened.
KK: That sounds fun!
LS: I’m sorry, we’re gonna cut that out.
(All laughing)
AD: Why? I feel like that’s a great tangent story.
LS: But I was just like, ok this is, alright, we are very proud. Very proud right now. Ha ha ha.
KK: Actually, so the thing is. So, I’ve never – singing was not anything of a strength of mine, I was super embarrassed. I never would sing. But I broke my leg my first year when I was training capoeira. This was, you know, when I was teaching in New York City. And because I couldn’t participate in the physical movements, I would go to class and play the pandeiro, which is the tambourine, and literally just sing for everyone who was training because that was my way of participating and it – that’s what really got me into, you know, learning how to sing and play the instruments more. Was, being injured.
[09:34]
AD: That’s so fascinating. So interesting. That’s also cool that you engage it. In feeling like it’s, kinda like, you know, whatever scared about it, that’s cool that you…
LS: Yeah.
AD: Leaned in, or whatever, people say. Ha ha ha.
KK: Yeah.
LS: Yeah, thank you for sharing!
KK: Yeah, thanks.
AD: So, tell us a little bit about your – you just mentioned that you were a New York City teacher. So, can you tell us a little bit about your journey of, getting into teaching mathematics and also kind of, uh, teaching mathematics and social justice simultaneously?
[10:13]
KK: Yeah, sure. A lot of it really relates to my own family history. My family was interned, incarcerated during World War II. I’m fourth generation Japanese-American, so both of my sets of grandparents on both sides were incarcerated. As well as my dad. My dad was just born. All my aunties and uncles. My mom wasn’t alive yet. And so, I actually was doing this history day project when I was in middle school and I called my Uncle Tommy and asked him about the experience and he actually yelled at me and said, ‘You don’t know what it was like. Never ask me about this again.’ And hung up the phone on me.
LS: Mmm.
AD: Oh wow.
KK: And, that was a seminal experience for me. You know, really in understanding injustice. So that, I think really sparked my interest in social justice.
The school that I went to, I went to a large, over 4,000 student Title I high school. And it was just very very tracked. And so, when I graduated from college, I went to a job fair and started teaching at Berkeley High School. There, I also saw a lot of inequities. Dr. Pedro Noguera has done a lot of work around the inequities at Berkeley High School, and so when I moved to New York City and I started teaching in New York City, I got involved in community organizing – really from this racist song that was on the radio, and got connected with Rosa Clemente and DJ Kuttin Kandi. I was doing a lot of organizing with my students along with hip hop organizing and then, that’s how I got involved in NYCoRE. And, really got to meet a lot of great people. I met some folks, you know, former Black Panthers. And so, I was doing organizing work outside of my math classroom. And I really wanted to be able to merge the two. And I would say, you know, really, one of the reasons that I went into academia is because I have so many questions around how do we do this work. How do we merge social justice and mathematics teaching and learning in the classroom? [12:28]
AD: Wow, it sounds like – there’s so many tangent questions that I would love to kinda like, get more insight into. When you were in New York City schools, you talked about kind of like, delving into organizing with your students in the community. What – and the concept of hip hop – like, groups? Music? I’m not sure what exactly? Could you speak a little bit more about what that might have like looked like, or what was the about? What were you organizing around in that context?
KK: So, at that time. We were organizing around actions that we wanted not only the station to take, but the bigger corporation, Emmis corporation, to apologize and try to repair harm. It was a racist song that had happened after the tsunami hit Southeast Asia. And then did some work actually, with, around FCC regulations. And I mean, for me, I was very inspired by my students. And so, when I would speak with my students about these actions that I was involved in, they were interested in also participating and so, you know. I would take my students to rallies so, for instance, Jessica Pedraza, Karen Suarez, Irene Martez. They would get on the mic, and you could hear a pin drop. Because they were just such powerful, passionate speakers. And you know, the politicians would also speak, but it’s when my students got the mic that actually – I think was not only powerful for me, but for everyone who was there.
[14:04]
AD: Mm. Wow, that sounds amazing, experiences.
LS: Yeah, and I wanna – you mentioned that your social justice, your activism existed separately from what you were doing in the classroom. And I felt this was true for myself and true for so many science and math teachers that I know, is that they’re separate and then at some point, you try to merge them. So I’m wondering if you could talk about what that transition was like? From having them be separate and then bringing them together through your craft?
[14:34]
KK: Yeah, I think one of the ways that I started to be able to bridge that gap was through the “Creating Balance in an Unjust World” conference. And that was co-founded by myself and Jonathan Osler. We were leaving a NYCoRE meeting, we were walking to the train and Jonathan was like, ‘You know, I have this idea about doing a conference, are you down to do this with me?’ And…I said, sure. That conference brings together educators of classroom teachers, also teacher educators, to really look at what type of activities, lessons, frameworks, um, perspectives can we use in social justice math. And that, I think for me, is how I started to bridge the gap.
I think that there are also pedagogical strategies that you can use that are more justice-oriented. You know, if we think about Paolo Freire’s work and the relationship between student and teacher, right, how, you know – teachers are really students and students are really teachers and we kind of flip flop those roles. And I think that developing those types of lessons are things that I really needed my students feedback on. You know, things that I maybe thought were justice-oriented or something that they would be interested in, like a community investigation – I really realized that I needed to start asking my students about their own interests.
[16:04]
AD: Yeah, that sounds like a very, like, powerful and such a deep grounded in community process. I really appreciate you acknowledging and like, really bringing forward the student voices and pushing that process that it didn’t happen…I feel like in academia when I read, it’s kind of like, the academic is the one who knows and then, you know like, it goes out. But you know, like, it’s really in a lived way, the inspiration and that momentum coming from our communities and our students. I really appreciate you sharing that with folks.
LS: I do wanna pause for one-second cause we mentioned NYCoRE a couple of times, and just for our listeners, to explain what that is. So, NYCoRE stands for New York Collective of Radical Educators. It’s a volunteer-run collective of teachers, educators, in the broad sense, that do activism around education here in New York City – but they’re also part of a larger organization called TAG, Teacher Activist Group. So there are like several of these types of groups in different cities.
[17:10]
AD: Yeah. Thanks for that interjection, of, I think it’s really important. Cause not everybody might know what NYCoRE is. How many years has NYCoRE been around?
LS: Since 2001. 2002?
AD: Ok.
KK: Yeah, a long time.
AD: Long time. For sure. So, in your – you know, we got to read a little bit of your recent, more recent works where you particularly have a piece on trauma-informed – well, it’s called healing informed social justice mathematics. Um, promoting student sociopolitical consciousness and well-being in the math classroom. And in that, you talk about these concepts that I hope you can kinda expand – help us understand. So, one was trauma-informed care and radical healing. What does that mean? What is trauma-informed care? And what is radical healing?
[18:03]
KK: Yeah. I’m excited to actually get to speak about the teacher in the study, Ms. Charles, because, like you mentioned, I think that academics are typically framed as so-called experts. But for me, as an academic, I see myself as someone with questions. And I am someone who is learning from teachers. So it’s actually much easier for me to talk about teachers that I know and the amazing work that they do than it is for me to actually answer questions about my own classroom. If that makes any sense.
AD: Yeah.
KK: But some of the things that she did just to try to better answer your question about social justice math, is what she did was, she would create a task that aligned with the math that she was supposed to do. So so was at a Title I public school. She was expected to follow the scope and sequence and the daily lessons, right. So, in one of the tasks, and I talk about this in the article. The task was around positive and negative numbers and the context was supposed to be a hot air balloon that goes up into the air, and it goes into a canyon for negative numbers. Right?
AD: Yeah.
KK: And so, she realized none of my students have been in a hot air balloon. I honestly don’t know anyone actually in my life who’s been in a hot air balloon.
(All laughing.)
LS: Facts.
KK: Um, I’ve never been to the Grand Canyon either so, you know, there’s a lot of missing contextual experiences. And so, what she did was, she created this task around food desserts. And made it about a young woman who was making gumbo for her family and she needed to go up and down this one street to get all of the different ingredients. Right. And because there wasn’t a local grocery store that had everything that she needed, she needed to go to these multiple places. And so, by doing that, students were still doing positive and negative numbers. They were thinking about their own food dessert in their own community. And they were also doing the positive and negative numbers with the mathematics.
And so, what’s really interesting is that Ms. Charles, the teacher in the study, every time she did one of these tasks, she also asked students how they felt about the fact that they had to go to multiple places and they didn’t have access to a grocery store that had fresh produce. And so, in this particular case she asked, and this is on the actual task card that she gave them: What do you think of Khalia’s access to food? Do you think that it is fair? What issues might this cause Khalia and her family or other people of her community?
[20:56]
And so, by doing that, students were starting to identify their emotions. Which is something that you do in trauma informed care. So a lot of trauma informed care is based off of cognitive behavioral therapy. Where students engage in different sessions. There are different formats of trauma informed care, where there are multilevel formats. Where some of them are intended for all students to receive. And then there are also different layers that are targeted supports for youth, and then also for the adults, the caregivers who are working with students.
One of the popular ones. I’m sure many people have heard of it is the positive behavioral intervention. I don’t know if that last ‘s’ is support or system. PBIS.
AD: Oh. PBIS. Yeah.
[21:44]
KK: But as you know, PBIS really is a behavior management system. It’s not really intended to care for young people and care for them in their whole needs. And so, radical healing is work by Dr. Shawn Ginwright at San Francisco State University, that really works to repair harm in a collective way with a community. He uses an ecological framework where underresourced, historically looted communities, those things are seen as environmental pollutants. So that, it’s not our individual, you know, students’ individual or parents’ individual faults, per se. For circumstances that they’re in, it’s the result of redlining, um, historical racism in the communities. So that students understand that there are these larger systems at play. Um, to work together towards healing with all community members.
[22:48]
AD: Wow, yeah, that sounds really rich, kindof, um, like, interrogation.
LS: Mhmm.
AD: What I really like actually. The first thing that stuck out is that the changing of the task kinda created this questioning of a question itself.
KK: Mhmm.
AD: Which is so powerful. Especially with math tasks, where it’s like, even with mathematics, it’s like, what am I gonna know this – when am I gonna need to know this? Right, being like a question that’s asked over and over. So, that seems so powerful just to introduce that. In terms of the radical healing, I’m curious of like, how that, you know, you gave like, some I guess, details kind of like what that means - a collective approach to repairing harm. And so it’s like seeing things systemic. How has that shown up, like – what would that look like in a unit of study? Or like, in an investigation or a theme?
[23:40]
KK: One of the things I will say is that, these are areas where I am really trying to push my own thinking. And where Ms. Charles really was the one who exposed me to these ideas cause she was doing this in her classroom, right. These weren’t the initial research questions that I had going into this study. But she had had the opportunity to engage in a workshop with Dr. Nadine Burke Harris. I don’t know if you’ve heard of her, but she has been appointed as the new Surgeon General of California. And she has this amazing Ted Talk, you should definitely watch it. It’s about how trauma affects the development of children.
[24:22]
And so, Ms. Charles had some expertise in this, which is why she was asking students about their feelings. I think that another thing that’s really important about radical healing is that it is strengths based. So, students are not seen as, you know, oh poor students, we need to help them and they’re damaged. Right, it’s no. Students have strengths, they are thriving. Even given the ecological systems of oppression that they experience every day. And that, you know, how can we help to empower them in order to have strong roots to their culture, cultivate their agency, build strong relationships with their family members, with their community members in their school, as well as, achieve in the traditional ways.
[25:15]
AD: Mmm. Great, thank you for sharing that. I’ll have to definitely check out Nadine – is it Nadine Burke Harris, you said right?
KK: Yeah, Dr. Nadine Burke Harris. AD: Ok.
KK: And Dr. Shawn Ginwright too. His work is amazing.
AD: Great, ok! We’ll definitely check them both out and put up a link for other folks who tune in to this.
LS: Yeah. It also, I mean in addition to sounding really rich, sounds messy. Messy in a sense that you don’t know what might come up for students or for you as the teacher when you’re engaging in this kind of work. So I wonder if from like, the work that you’ve done and seen like – and this is, maybe a big question, I don’t know. If like, education clearly needs to shift for this when we think about our students and who the students are. And many different places in the US. What do we need in order to support teachers to do this work? Schools, education system, all of it. I don’t know.
AD: To be able to do trauma informed care and radical healing?
LS: Trauma informed and radical healing. Yeah.
[26:16]
KK: Hmm, that is such a big question.
LS: Ha ha, sorry.
KK: But you are an academic, so, the academics have big questions.
(Laughter)
KK: We have questions that we’re interested in. I mean, I think it is very very tricky. I wanna shout out a friend of mine, Denise Huey, who mentioned to me, you know, when we talked about how, there are teachers who are interested in supporting students in their personal healing – and students do not need to share with us.
LS: Mhmm.
KK: Right. They can choose whether or not they want to share what’s going on in their life with us, and I think that it – that’s their decision right. Like, teachers, adults, should not be trying to, I don’t know, capitalize isn’t necessarily the right word…or, pathologize young people. Right. And actually, one of the students, so I interviewed eight students. I had eight focus students. And, one of the students, I was – we were doing the interview at lunchtime – and I was asking him, I had copies of their work and so I pointed out one of the tasks and something that he had written. And so, he just started bawling crying, you know. Big tears, explaining how he really understood what had happened to the single mother. She had played a video about a single mom and then did a math task around fractions and percentages, of splitting up a paycheck in order to be able to pay all of your bills.
(Mhmm)
He said, we’ve been living in my mom’s car while we’re in between homes. And my dad left, and so it’s even harder for my mom. So, he was experiencing intermittent homelessness.
LS: Mhmm.
KK: And I think that I just became the adult that he chose to share that with. Right. (Mhmm) And he was also a student who, was focused and studious and you know, unless you asked him what was going on in his life, I don’t think he necessarily would have shared. And so I asked him, you know, can I share with Ms. Charles, what do you think about us trying to get some counseling services for you?
But he really had an outlet, and every single task that he did, he talked about his personal experiences. He would use language like – she gave them a task when they compared like a so-called good neighborhood to a so-called bad neighborhood – and he would say, well they’re stereotyping about this so-called bad neighborhood. This is what people say and then when you come there, you realize it’s a good neighborhood. But he had this analysis because of what he was going through and it gave him an outlet to not only have that analysis but also talk about his own experiences that in a typical math classroom, I don’t think you would necessarily be able to.
[29:18]
(Mhmm)
KK: But, you know, I mean, Ms. Charles had some expertise in trauma informed care, so I think that educators having the opportunities to have those type of experiences. To also think about supports for adults – what are the things that we need supports with? I know that there is some concern too around vicarious or secondhand trauma and so, I do think it’s very very very tricky. I was lucky to be someone who was able to learn from Ms. Charles. So, I don’t feel like I have a very great answer to that question, ha ha.
[29:55]
AD: No, I think you’re absolutely spot on when you’re saying it’s – like, it is difficult and so, um, a very present thing that we’re enmeshed in, right. You mentioned this one student bringing up their intermittent home, you know, having a home.
KK: Mhmm.
AD: And that’s so, that’s growing. There’s so many students in NYC who also are not having stable, secure home. So this is like, around us. We are in this process. This kind of like, goes into the next piece. And I’m gonna see if I can like, connect my follow up question with it. But, you talked about how that particular student had an outlet to be able to kinda speak to their experience in a math class, that wouldn’t really give that space, and at the same time kind of, allow that person to share kind of – it’s not only a perspective but it’s a political analysis. You know, all students are not the same. They’re not monolithic, but they come in with very different ideas of what’s happening. In what ways did you notice, or have you worked on or like, thought about other folks’ practice of like, how they shape a political analysis in relationship to these different things – very real experiences that students have – so like, the shaping of political analysis. And then how is that allowed in the structure of a mathematics education classroom and how is that pushed? Right, it sounds like, from what I’m getting is that this particular teacher, Ms. Charles is pushing it, is like really trying to make a different kind of space. So yeah, political analysis and like, how is that possible in math ed?
[31:36]
KK: Well, you know, it’s very interesting because she actually was very cognizant of the fact that she did not want to push a specific political agenda.
AD: Hmm.
KK: She actually came as a guest speaker. I was adjuncting a class at UC Berkeley, they were pre-service math and science teachers and they asked her: what do I do if I have a student who is a Trump supporter? And she said, like, that’s fine. If a student has a different political, you know, belief, let’s talk about the issues. Let’s talk about people experiencing homelessness. Let’s talk about the fact that – so the median rent – this was in California – and the median rent in this particular city was $4,400 a month. Right. So, people who have full-time jobs, are living in their cars or they’re living in tents or staying with friends because of capitalism. The tech industry is really coming in, right, and really pushing people out. And so, she really did leave it open to students but she would lay out the facts for them and let them have that analysis.
She, I thought, did a really good job of building their critical consciousness in a way that was really about them coming to their own conclusions. I mean, one of the tasks that she did. It was – I mean this was sixth-grade math, right. So there’s positive/negative numbers, area, and she had them analyze two different playgrounds, one was in a more well-resourced community. The other one was in a historically looted community. Of course, one was much bigger than the other, and one of the students said - and children are so brilliant – she said, why don’t we just share the playground spaces? Why is it that we only are using this one, and they’re only using that one? Like, why can’t we just both use both spaces? And we could share. Right? You know, the students would say, I don’t think that we should feel bad. No one should have to feel bad because of what their parents make or what their parent’s job is.
[34:04]
They would say things like, we’re all human. These are things that we deserve. That, there was a – in a video I mentioned about a single mom struggling to make ends meet – the students said, you know, well she should have more time off with her child. Right, longer maternity leave. Um, she should be getting paid more. She should be getting help with childcare. Right, which we know that there are other countries that do those things, right. Longer maternity and paternity leave. Um, subsidized childcare. The students were coming up with these things really on their own because she didn’t expose them to those ideas from other places.
[34:05]
AD: Mhmm, right. And just to clarify – the students that were in this particular class are in, living from a particular historical situation – who are the students I guess?
KK: Oh. Yes, yeah.
AD: Yeah.
KK: So they were all students of color. They all were living in a historically looted community, that faced also a lot of environmental challenges. The soil and the air quality was really poor, such that people suffered from asthma and cancer at much higher rates. And they, they lived near the school. And so, Ms. Charles is born and raised in this city. She’s a Black woman and she feels very strongly about making sure that when she’s talking about issues with students, that they don’t feel bad about their own community.
(Mhmm)
Like, she wants them to know the strength of their own communities. And because she’s from – she’s not from that particular neighborhood, but she’s from that city and she knows the different reputations, so to speak of the different neighborhoods. And so, I think because also of her critical consciousness, was another reason why she was able to do this type of work.
LS: Can we pause again? Kari, can you – cause you’re using the term historically looted, and then, also for our listeners, if we could maybe take a second and explain, or describe what that term means in the context that we’re using it.
[36:14]
KK: Sure. I’m using historically looted because I think it’s important for us to recognize the intentionality of certain communities’ resources being taken away and other communities’ resources being given. And, I think that having that analysis of structural racism, historical racism, I think is important for us to recognize in thinking about social justice and equity work in education.
LS: Thank you.
AD: It reminds me of this phrase – when you say historically looted – it brought to mind, Walter Rodney’s work.
LS: Mhmm.
AD: He has a book called How Europe Underdeveloped Africa (1972), and so like, on this very large historical scale, kind of what you – that’s the connection that I made to what you just said.
KK: Mm. Mhmm.
AD: Yeah, so thank you, for sharing that.
KK: Yeah.
AD: Shall we move on? To the next one.
LS: Yeah. Ha ha ha. So, Kari, we were also curious about how, I think math for a lot of people, be they, students or adults, just bring up a lot of feelings. And so, we were wondering if you had any thoughts or could speak to how math itself in the way that it’s taught or the way that it’s presented sort of compounds trauma that students might be coming in with? And so, I’m just thinking about the idea that I know – math, like, if you’re good at math, that means you’re smart. And so students already have this idea around their intelligence in relation to this particular subject. So, how might walking into this classroom having had that relationship with math, potentially compound anything that they’re already bringing in?
[37:56]
KK: Yeah. That’s a great question, and I know that you had Dr. Rochelle Gutiérrez (LS/AD: Yes/Mhmm) on the show and I love her, she’s one of my mentors, someone who I very much look up to. And, you know, she talks a lot about how mathematics has this unearned privilege. Right, or that achievement in the traditional ways in mathematics is seen as some type of proxy for intelligence overall, right. Which, is silly. And, that mathematics classes in and of themselves can be traumatic spaces. That’s why I think, as adults, people will easily openly say, ‘Oh, I’m not a math person.’ Right, we would never say that about reading. And literacy. Like, ‘Oh, I just don’t read books.’ Because that’s not very socially acceptable to say. But I think that it’s socially acceptable to say, ‘I don’t like math,’ or ‘I’m not good with numbers’ because of the trauma that so many adults have experienced. Um, that we go into classes and there’s this time pressure.
I don’t know if you had to do ‘Mad Minutes,’ like the times tables.
LS: Mhmm.
AD: Oh yeah.
LS: Ha ha ha.
KK: … Like, remember the Mad Minutes. And, Dr. Jo Boaler talks about how those timed, speed situations in mathematics can actually create this math trauma. So, it’s trauma just in math class alone that can create these negative feelings for us, or even using your fingers…And so, Dr. Boaler talks about how using our fingers – it actually helps you in your thinking and it’s not actually – you know, it’s considered like, oh you shouldn’t have to use your fingers anymore. But it’s actually a very useful tool. And so, yeah. I definitely. I agree that the ways in which we’ve taught mathematics has created trauma for people. This individualistic, you know, ok, I’m gonna work on this on my own versus working in a group.
In some other of Dr. Boaler’s work, she did this work at the Railside School, where students worked in heterogeneous groups. The whole math program was not tracked. So, it was a heterogeneous group of ninth graders who would do math together. They would work on a rich problem. Students would present, they would call on each other. Right, so students had agency and authority in the classroom, and they would decide together what they thought about the explanation and the justification that students were giving. And so, the pedagogical pieces, I think are really important right because we could be doing a social justice math activity exploring food desserts but do that in a very traditional way.
We could lecture, we could do it just individually – but if we’re not also, and going back to what Paolo Freire, right, thinking about this student-as-teacher, teacher-as-student – if we’re not also embracing those different pedagogical stances, then we’re not really working toward justice and equity in those classrooms.
[41:20]
AD: Absolutely. So, in that thinking of the structure in mathematics classes and actually, a lot of schooling that kinda privileges, that like, is about this individual achievement, that – as opposed to the collective – how would you describe, like, ways to heal from that? From trauma that’s really so structurally embedded in schooling and math curriculum?
LS: Mhmm.
AD: I know that’s probably also a big question. It’s kinda like, can you tell me the answer, but…
(All laughing)
KK: I know, I was just gonna say –
AD: Cause it’s a collective one.
KK: I was gonna say, that is a future study! Ha ha ha.
LS: Oh!
AD: Mhmm. Yeah. But, hm, maybe some reflections on the kind of like, your –
KK: Sure.
AD: What you’ve gleaned so far on your work in time?
[42:00]
KK: You know, I think one of the things that I have really gained from doing organizing work is, that organizing work is really healing work and one of my friends, Dr. Farima Pour-Khorshid, she talks about this a lot in her work. And, you know, I think, oftentimes as new academics. We are told just to focus on your writing. Just focus on your research. You’re doing all these other things and you really just need to focus on your writing and your research.
But, I mean, for me, when I don’t have those spaces and I don’t have those relationships – I don’t think that it’s a healthy way to live. Um, it certainly doesn’t help me try to engage in justice work if I’m alone.
AD: Yeah.
KK: Right, and I’m not working with other people.
[42:56] And, so, I think that if we do really want to answer these questions, then we should all be working together. I actually wrote this piece when I was in graduate school, around trying to address dilemmas of social justice mathematics by working in collaboration with teachers, math coaches, researchers, and students. Because we’re often doing the same type of work, just in separate spaces instead of doing it together.
LS & AD: Mhmm.
[43:24]
KK: But I think that academics, we have the privilege of, you know, oftentimes academics when we’re doing this with a school, it’s – like, for instance, so I’m gonna be teaching sixth-grade math this summer. Which I’m super excited about.
LS: Ha haha.
AD: Awesome.
KK: Super excited to get into a classroom with young people again. But it’s a summer program, right. It’s not like I have my five sections.
LS: Mhmm.
KK: Of teaching a full load. I have time – I have people to collaborate with, to develop the curriculum. We’re developing an environmental justice curriculum. Looking at – first, we’re gonna look at water quality. And then air quality. Which are very very relevant in Pittsburg, PA. And, having the ability to collaborate I think is just really really, one of the ways that I think that we can get towards thinking about solutions.
Like I said, as an academic, I see myself as someone with questions and so, I think that’s something like a future participatory designed research/participatory action research project could investigate.
[44:32]
AD: Thank you for sharing. Kind of, where you are.
LS: Yeah.
AD: And even just conceptually, I felt like that was really helpful for me to hear.
LS: Mhmm.
AD: And also, just like – hit me right – I was like, yeah, you’re right. We need to be with organizing. I mean, I – both Toya and I are still in like, doctoral grad, working slash doctoral grad stage –
LS: Mhmm.
AD: And so, that push of writing alone is really –
LS: Whew! Ha ha ha.
AD: Is so, um, present, and is isolating.
LS: Mhmm.
AD: And so, I appreciate you saying, ha, you know that organizing work is like, where we should be.
[45:04]
LS: Yeah, absolutely. We look forward to this future study that you mentioned.
KK: Ha ha ha.
LS: And reading and hearing about everything that comes out of that.
AD: Just like maybe a minute or two left before we need to go.
KK: Ok.
AD: Are there any projects coming up or, contact things, or social media profiles that you’d like to share with listeners? I know there’s – you spoke about the Social Justice Math Conference, um, that you have organized in the past and it seems like it’s continuing. So, is there anything that you want folks to kind of pay attention to that they can participate in and learn more?
[45:39]
KK: Yes! So, the next “Creating Balance in an Unjust World” Conference on STEM Education and Social Justice is coming up in January (2020). So, it will be January 17 -19, 2020. In Honolulu, HI.
LS: Oh! Hawaii! Hello.
AD: Oh!
(All laughing)
KK: We are partnering with a group of faculty at the University of Hawaii, Manoa.
LS: Wow!
KK: And they are a very interesting group because they actually have an ethnomathematics program.
AD: Yes, it’s one of the first!
KK: Yes!
AD: Awesome.
KK: That you can earn a graduate certificate in. And so, we’re partnering with them and so, it’s really great because we have a larger organizing group. Our website is: www.cbuw.org , so it’s “Creating Balance in an Unjust World” – CBUW.org.
We just put out our e-blast about save the dates. We are soon going to send out our requests for workshop proposals.
LS: Yayy!
KK: Yes! And so, and we haven’t yet selected or asked or announced who the keynote speaker will be. But we will be working on that. So, that I think would be really great because it is an opportunity, actually, for all of us to do the organizing work, think about the healing work, and doing it in community with others. We really also try to have youth involved, so we have money that we set aside for youth travel grants.
[47:12]
AD: Awesome.
KK: One of the things we really love to see is to see youth presenters or youth who are co-presenting with their teacher.
AD: Awesome.
KK: Yeah, and we’re very very excited also about the expertise that the University of Hawaii folks are going to bring to the conference.
AD: Cool, thanks! And we’ll make sure we’ll put that link on the website so folks can check it out.
LS: Mhmm.
AD: And maybe even come.
LS: Attend!
AD: Yeah!
KK: Yes!
AD: Get those students to come and –
LS: Let’s go Atasi! Let’s go!
LS & AD: Ha ha ha
AD: Let’s all go!
KK: Yeah!
AD: Come on everybody! Ha ha. All listeners.
KK: Presentations.
AD: Great! So thank you so much again for joining us.
LS: Yeah, thank you!
AD: You really gave us so many pieces to kind of, just kind of sit with –
LS: Mhmm.
AD: And think through.
LS: Mhmm.
AD: Thank you.
KK: Oh, thank you! And thank you for just, I don’t know – letting me be me. You know, I think as academics, it’s like we are positioned as you’re supposed to be the expert. And I really think it’s important for us to question and challenge those notions.
[48:09]
AD: Yeah, absolutely.
[48:12]
[♫ Music begins playing. “Berimbau Chorou” by Mestre Recruta]
[48:41]
AD: So, you just heard a little bit from Mestre Recruta. And, this song I believe is from the album Berimbau Chorou, which was released in 2015.
LS: Yeah. And that’s also the name of the song.
AD: “Berimbau Chorou.”
LS: Mhmm.
AD: The song is interesting because it’s part of capoeira.
LS: Mhmm.
AD: Which is an Afro-Brazilian martial arts, slash dance, play, game, form from what I understand. So it has like, really interesting sounds to it. And it’s like a pretty cool, um, activity, that a lot of people play and take part in. I don’t know if you had many thoughts as you’re listening to it, or if you have any associations with capoeira? [49:25]
LS: Yeah, I like the song. I like the drums. I mean, you put something on with drums, I’m gonna dance – I’ll dance to it. Ha ha.
AD: Yeah, yeah.
LS: Um.
AD: Have you ever played?
LS: The drums?
AD: No, capoeira.
LS: Oh.
(Both laughing)
AD: Either. Ok, maybe I should say either.
LS: No to both.
AD: Ah ha ha ha.
LS: No to –
AD: It’s interesting cause I could hear – you hear the, I don’t know the instrument, but the stringed one.
LS: It sounded like an oud.
AD: Mmm.
LS: Spelled o-u-d. Oud.
AD: And –
LS: Also kinda like a banjo, but not.
AD: Kinda. Right, and I believe that’s – has West African roots of a musical instrument. The musical instrument and the form of playing, which is so distinctive.
LS: Mhmm.
AD: Like you hear that and you’re like oh, that’s – I mean, with the drums, it’s like, ok, it makes me think of capoeira. Which I have never played. I’ve seen –
LS: Capoeira?
AD: Yeah, capoeira. I’ve seen it.
LS: Is that the terminology that they use? I’m not much versed –
AD: Versed on capoeira.
LS: Not much versed in capoeira.
AD: Well, on this website, ha ha ha, that I’m on. I believe so. I mean it’s both talked about as a practice, and a martial art form. So people play a – it’s, on this website of ucahayward.com , um, they talk about it as a game that people are playing with one another. Where it’s both kind of like, a ceremonial and also this like, form of combat. So, and I’ve heard people talk about it as like, like, we’re gonna play.
LS: Mhmm.
AD: Because it’s used, what I’ve seen like, on videos, or other people. It’s like two people who are facing each other and they’re like dancing and also battling, you know, to this music.
LS: Mhmm.
AD: Right, so you, you see like, it’s not like a group of people doing it together. It’s always, I’ve always seen two.
[51:09]
It’s a pretty cool song and it’s also pretty interesting and deeply historical, like, practice. I don’t even wanna call it art – it’s like, I don’t know. It’s still active.
LS: I mean, you can call it art.
AD: Yeah.
LS: There’s the dancing, there’s the music.
AD: Mhmm.
LS: There’s the history piece to it. I mean I think there is something to be said for what got created by folk – by enslaved Africans through like, how things were like – quelled? Is that a word? Or like, you weren’t allowed to practice.
AD: Yeah.
LS: Like, you, you weren’t supposed to speak your language. You weren’t supposed to worship your deities, or, practice your spirituality. But, out of that, you know, ways were found to do those things. I think capoeira’s just an example.
AD: Yeah!
LS: Another example of that.
AD: Mhmm.
LS: What that gotta do with teacher ed…
(Both laughing)
AD: I mean, maybe not so directly but I think in what you just said is like, interesting when people are quelled. Ha, to use that word, or like, you know, you find ways to like resist, or to do the things that you need to do to even in the midst.
LS: Mhmm.
AD: And I’m gonna put this meaning onto, you know, like, I believe Dr. Kokka, you know, practices, or she does capoeira.
LS: Mhmm.
AD: She, um, and so in a way, it’s kind of like. I feel like, it allows you to like, know that there’s resistance. You can find other ways to do the things you need to do.
LS: Mhmm.
AD: Be active. Even though like, math ed, or the education system, in general, can be so, restrictive for so many things. But, people find different ways to do stuff, yeah.
LS: Yeah.
AD: Yeah. I just put these, ha. I just put this in there. I don’t know if she would agree or she would say the same thing but, I think it’s pretty cool. And I appreciate her sharing this piece.
LS: Indeed. Yes. Thank you for listening!
AD: Thank you! Bye.
LS: Bye!
[53:01]
[♫ Musical outro.]
AD: Check us out at Abolition Science [dot] org, where you can sign up for our newsletter.
LS: And follow us on Instagram @abolitionscience and also follow us on Twitter @abolition_sci
AD: See you soon!
