BIPOC: Navigating Grad School
In this episode, we have an informal conversation with fellow doctoral students, Robert P. Robinson and Wendy Barrales, about our experiences in graduate school. We highlight some ways BIPOC (Black, Indigenous, People of Color) navigate the so-called Ivory Tower. What does this mean to critically engage and develop our work within an academic institution? Listen in to this candid conversation.
Transcript (Please Excuse Any Errors)
L to R: LaToya Strong, Atasi Das, Robert P. Robinson, Wendy Barrales
[Music Intro ♫]
LaToya [LS]: Hey listeners! Welcome to Abolition Science Radio, we’re your hosts. I’m LaToya Strong-
Atasi [AD]: And Atasi Das. We’re here to talk all things science and math and their relationship to-
LS: Colonialism
AD: Oppression
LS: Resistance
AD: Education
LS: Liberation
AD: And so much more.
[ ♫ Music fade out.]
[0:25]
LS: Welcome back to another episode of Abolition Science Radio. So, today…
AD: We’re talking about, stuff.
LS: Yes. Not our normal stuff, but stuff that’s just as important. So, we have two guests with us today, Robert P. Robinson, who – (Woo!) – who you all have met before. And Wendy Barrales, (Woo!) who you have not met before.
(Collective woo!)
LS: I feel like I just stumbled over your name.
[0:54]
AD: What are we talking about today?
LS: We are talking about grad school. So, the four of us are all in the same PhD program. We are all folks of color. And, we’re gonna be talking about, not how to survive…like how to survive, how to make it through – how to -
Wendy Barrales (WB): Yeah!
LS: Ok, yes, that.
Robert P. Robinson (RPR): What it’s like!
LS: What it’s like.
AD: Yeah. So, we’re just really excited to kinda have this as an informal conversation with friends and colleagues and maybe we should just jump into it?
LS: Yeah, let’s start with like, how long it’s been.
AD: Oh ok!
1.26
LS: This is an embarrassing question, hahaha, so nevermind..
AD: Or, if you choose to, or maybe you can just say your name and just anything you wanna just briefly be like, ‘hey this is me’, I don’t know?
(Collective chuckling)
RPR: I don’t know what to say, I mean, I’ve been here before. Hahahahaha.
AD: That’s ok, you know for- not all listeners may have tuned in. Which you should…
LS: Robert said: So y’all gonna act like y’all forgot. (Collective laughter.) What, y’all don’t know me. Y’all gonna pretend like I wasn’t here before? Y’all gonna make me reintroduce myself. Like my episode isn’t the second most downloaded.
(Collective laughter continues)
AD: Which is truuuuue. It really is!
(Collective laugher continues)
[2:05]
RPR: Oh gosh!
LS: Ok, how about we start, how we start regularly.
RPR: Ok.
LS: Ok, first, can you just tell us your name.
RPR: My name is Robert, I’m in the Urban Education program with y’all. We used to have strands. And I’m in the Language, Context, and Culture strand.
[02:18]
WB: Hi, I’m Wendy Barrales. I’m also in the Urban Ed program and this is my sixth year. I’m gonna expose myself cause I think it’s important and part of like, a nontraditional trajectory of academia. And I’m a former ethnic studies teacher and I worked with Toya also. Formerly as a STEAM teacher. Year, I will share more about why I am still in a PhD program at year 6.
RPR: Alright.
AD: I’m Atasi, as you all know, from all the other episodes. But I’m in my fifth year of the Urban Education program. Robert and I started at the same time.
RPR: Same cohort.
AD: Same cohort.
RPR: So, I’m also fifth year.
AD: Haha. And, also, haven’t been in the classroom for a number of years, but I’m in the program full time. Just moved to come to be in it.
LS: I am LaToya. I get distracted so easily y’all. Robert just did a shimmy and I shimmied back and then (Collective laughter), I don’t know ha ha ha. And then like, what am I talking about? This is my seventh year. So we can go into that too, and so I think that that is important to point out. The time they say it takes and then the time it does take for certain people.
[03:27]
LS: Alright let’s do it.
AD: With our questions? Yes, as is, ok. Ok, so, the first thing we wanted to just ask everybody, and chime in whenever you want, is – What did you wish you would have known about from when you started the doctoral program?
[03:42]
WB: So, I can share a little bit about my experience. And so, I came to even know about this particular program through NYCoRE, another group, another like educator group that I was a part of and many folks there, including Toya and people from previous cohorts were part of this program, and so I had thought about a PhD but I had never seen it in a more like, critical, radical, organizing way. And so, that seemed really aligned to what I wanted to do, but I definitely didn’t know what I was getting myself into. That belief didn’t align with then the experience that I had. It aligned with the people that I met, but not necessarily what I was expecting from the program.
And I think I also wish I knew that um, mentorship and advisement can vary very, like it varies between, even within a program varies. Yeah, varies. I don’t know what other word to say, ha, it varies in terms of like, extremely supportive, like co-authoring with you, to…this you are another like, thing on my to-do list and I’m here if you need me, but you have to actively reach out. So, I wish I knew more of that as a full time teacher and going to school full time…before I started.
[05:02]
RPR: For folks who might now know, can you talk about what NYCoRE is, cause you mentioned NYCoRE.
WB: Yeah, so NYCoRE is the New York Collective of Radical Educators. Um, they’re a group here in New York City that does a lot of social justice work, a lot of organizing. There’s a conference coming up in March (2020). And so, I was invited through Wazina – shoutout to Wazina – who was working at my school at the time and invited me to the meetings at that time. This was 2013, when I started getting more involved and I did and ItAG, which is an Inquiry to Action Group, where it was all teachers of color and I felt like it was a big sense of community there and so that was the reason that I felt so aligned in that. It wasn’t just like teachers, it wasn’t just teachers of color. But like, it was people who wanted to do social justice work, critical work within the classroom. And unfortunately, I didn’t really have that within the school that I was working at, other than Wazina.
[06:02]
So I thought, ‘Oh, I’m gonna do this PhD program where this work is gonna continue.’ And it did…but not because of the institution. But rather, because of the other people, other students in the program. That’s why it continued.
[06:16]
RPR: Cool. When I think about what I wish someone would have told me when I came into the program, or when I started – I wish someone would have told me that this is probably gonna be one of the most emotionally taxing periods of your life. Um, I wanna quit often. I get tired often. Sometimes like, I jokingly quit, but in my heart, I’m just like, fuck this. Um, and then, yeah. That every other month, every other week, every other day, that you’re gonna feel like, you know, that you don’t have any firm footing. That when you get close to the end, that it feels like you don’t know shit.
I feel like I frequently don’t know anything and I’ve read so much and I feel like, all the time, I’m co- like, I’m a TA in an undergrad class now and I feel like there’s like nothing to offer. And I know I know stuff, but I feel like, it’s like a whole…I don’t know… It feels like five years of a hazing process, where people are gonna basically tell you, you don’t know shit until you finally get that piece of paper and then they’re gonna be like: ‘Congratulations, you still don’t know shit.’ And I wish somebody would have told me that. Hahahaha. People have told me along the way, but nobody told me at the beginning. But yeah, so.
[07:26]
AD: Yeah, I was thinking about this question of like, what you wish you would have known. I feel like, like part of it is like the hindsight, like…I wish I wou- someone would have told me, like as if you left it, but like…like, what you’re saying, also still in it. So I feel like, I don’t know what I wish because I’m in the middle of like, really struggling to… figure out what I know, what can I offer and like, I’m just- I’m tired. Like, you get sooo tired. And like, the topic that you kinda like have this passion that you’re creating like, at some point, like, at this point, for me, I feel like, why am I doing this?
You know, so, it’s hard to answer the question cause I don’t feel like I’ve passed that to be like, ‘I wish someone would have told me that there’s a light’ because it feels like there’s no, it just like, it kind of feels futile in some ways…in a lot of ways. Not in some ways, it feels really futile when I watch people who are actively in the classroom, or like, think about, you know, folks who are in the streets who are in like, the – fighting for the things in education that I’m like reading about and trying to write about with folks that I’m like, do you care? Like, why am I talking? Why am I doing this work? I feel like is questioned a lot. And I didn’t anticipate how strong it would be. Like, I knew it was gonna happen, but I was like, man this has made me question like, just like, what is this gonna do? In the world, not even just for me, but what is this about to do in the world? So, yeah, that’s me.
[08:54]
WB: Well, just to add what you were saying, like, both what Robert and Atasi are saying, of like, I am currently in a place where I finished my second exam, so I can share that with everyone. (Woohoo/yeah!) And so I’m defending next week and still, like, there’s a breakthrough but then it’s back to the questioning of like, how am I even gonna defend this if I haven’t read enough or I don’t know enough, or, my experience as a teacher, even though we know it’s like worthy and it’s like, I’m an expert in what I’ve lived through or what I’ve taught, it’s still, you go back to that same well like, I don’t know. Or how is this gonna contribute or what is this really going to do.
And then, you see some people doing research and then you’re like infuriated by who they are and the identities that they carry. And then you’re like no, then I really need to be the one doing this work. Because if not, then the mic is passed to them and that is like, frightening. There are a lot of people, I would say in the space, as many like, incredible people that I’ve had – made as friends and community, there’s also a group of people that I’m like, I can’t believe you’ve – well not that I can’t believe, it’s frightening that you’re going to continue to be a cog in the wheel of the same stuff that’s reproduced in academia.
[10:16]
AD: Yeah, I’ve asked that question of like…You know, some people say that I’m not of academia, but I’m in academia. Like, not to be of it. But like, I really question – I don’t know if this is answering the question or if I’m just like, have a whole different question in my head, but like, is there a way to be part of what really is like… the hazing is like, it’s not just like, a feeling, it’s like really about knowledge. Like, beating the way you’re understanding the world, the way you wanna assert something in the world. It’s like beating it up, all the time, being in academia. I feel like feels like that. So you’re always in constant battle and struggle with yourself and like, this thing. And so I always like, like I’m qui- like, there is a power to like, what comes out because so many things are then like, informed by those works, those like classical works or whatever, and then it’s referred to, and so…I don’t know, it’s a conundrum.
Can you be in academia and not of it? Or like, whatever that means, and what does it do to an individual, like there are people who you admire and that you kind of like, your work has meant something significant cause it’s changed the way that I understand education or whatever and then, the individual who’s in that is now like, sometimes, I feel like…well are you a broken human being? For being in it, you know. So, I don’t know if that’s asking the question but I wish I really would have understood the depth of that before coming in, cause, yeah.
[11:49]
Ok, so we’ve been talking about kindof that, what we wish we would have known, but what are some practices or habits that you’ve established that have helped you survive this far?
[11:58]
RPR: I think for me, especially years three and four, I think, study dates, like having writing dates with people. I don’t do that as much this year. I’ve gotten stuff done but like, it would have helped more if I had that, like our Wednesdays at the GC. My third year, or like, our Wednesdays last year, you know like, these things that like, kind of kept me going were like, having study dates. Or even when I first started the dissertation process, I had like three to four study dates a week to kinda just have something. So even if I wasn’t working on the dissertation, I knew that I had to have something I was gonna be working on on one of these three or four days a week.
Um, I think always asking people who are like, higher than me in the program, what their processes are. Like just taking in what people are doing. Like, and finding out what fits for me. Like, asking people all the time – people who are studying things that I’m interested in, folks like professors who are on the other side, asking a lot of questions to figure out like, what is the landscape of like, the specific small space that I’m trying to play around in… but also all the areas that I’m interested in, like, African-American Studies, Africana Studies, Education, even English Education, History of Ed, asking people what they’re doing to figure out like, how I can also find my way out.
[13:15]
LS: Similarly to Robert P. Robinson (Hahaha), I think I’ve been the most “productive,” and I put productive in quotations, as in there’s these hoops that you gotta jump through and so, how do you get yourself to those points? So we, in our program have a first exam, we have a second exam, and so, I organize a couple study groups. So, like you’re presenting your work or we’re reading articles together, and so, cause, listen y’all - you cannot control who’s gonna be up in your class. (Collective Laughter) And so… and people love to hear themselves talk, you will never meet a group of people who love to hear themselves talk more than when you in academia. This shit is wild. Like, you’re not saying nothing but my gotdamn, it’s 10 minutes and you’re still talking.
So, finding people who are like minded, but maybe y’all are working on different things. So y’all can read an article and push each other’s thinking around what’s being presented. Most of the stuff that really pushes my work did not come from classes. I’ve taken some booty ass classes. Um. (Collective laughter.) And so, you – also so like, the title of that class gonna sound mad dope, the description, you’re gonna be like yess!, and then you get in the class and you’re gonna be like, what the hell, like what is this?
And so, something else – what is this question that I’m asking? (AD: What are your practices?) Oh, and so, I started doing this much later, but regardless of whether the class is good or not, like, try to write something that will go toward your dissertation or whatever, regardless of the class.
[14:45]
I wrote a paper in a class once just to spite the professor, cause the professor was - oh my, I’m not gonna go into the story, but the article had nothing – what I wrote had nothing to do with my, haha, with my work, but I was like so angry. He would like, the professor would always dismiss what I would say because it was like: ‘here, like here are the Black people fighting for their rights,’ and ‘here are the white people fighting for their rights’ …Like, that’s not it, that’s not the story. And so I wrote my whole paper just like, so he had to read it. Like, you’re gonna hear what I’m saying. Um.
[15:16]
(Collective hahaha)
Ok, I’m gonna leave it there so that I’m not the person that’s talking for like 10 minutes.
[15:22]
AD: I kind of wanted to aa - put to other folks – ask a follow up question about the practices, cause I’ve taken part in the study groups that you’ve organized and the study times that you organize and what I’ve found really awesome, and helpful to me, which is like, find amazing friends that will help pull you and your feelings, when you can’t do it yourself. Because this is solitary work, but it’s also not solitary also.
Could you describe some of the like – I really like the time method of like, how to work. For example, I’ll open my computer and have like, ten things on my To-Do list. And I don’t know where to start and I don’t know what to do. So my friend Robert…will help me start sometimes. But like, I don’t know if that’s, if it’s like – can I ask you to talk a little bit about like –
RPR: About my method?
[16:12]
AD: Yeah! I mean, maybe it’s yours, maybe you borrowed it, or whatever.
RPR: No. Two, I wanted to piggy back on yours for five seconds, just to say that writing papers from my classes has helped me a lot. Like, I found in my dissertation, um, every chapter I write is never completely from scratch. It’s something that, an idea I started or thought about in one of my classes that I can flesh out when I get to the dissertation chapter, so, thank you for that.
[16:35]
And then, for the writing thing. I don’t even know where I learned this from. Different people have different measures of it. I think I learned it from like some prep program that I was using when I taught high school. And they were like, for every 20 minutes of focus, take a 5 minute break. (WB: Oh yeah.) But we’ve been doing this also, we set a goal – I’ve done this in our writing groups too, yeah, like. What is our goal for the day, what are we going to finish? And then, where do we want to start? Alright, what are you gonna do for this next 20 minutes? Do the 20 minutes, 5 minute break, we can talk about what we did and then go back in. And I think like, breaking up the time, sometimes longer than that, like 30-45, it all depends on where we feel like it can make -
[17:12]
AD: I really appreciate that. That’s helped me. Ha.
RPR: Ha ha.
LS: Could we also just talk about the different ways that – how it could look if you’re doing it in a group, cause it doesn’t have to look one way. So what are – yes?
AD: What do you mean?
LS: Like, for example, there’s times when we get together and we’re just writing. So we’re all in the same room (RPR: Mhmm)... room, we’re all in the same room. (Collective laughing). And we’re just there to write. So we’re not checking in, it’s just a space where we’re all, the energy in the space is to write. So maybe you’re grading, maybe you’re reading, but you’re just working.
RPR: Mhmm.
LS: So that’s what I mean.
[17:48]
RPR: Mhmm, mhmm. And also like, like you were talking about earlier, the types of, sometimes it’s a reading group.
LS: Mhmm
RPR: Y’all like have an all, like a shared thing that you’re reading on, like and talking about, yeah.
WB: Sometimes it’s just the, I remember we had this. We would meet at a café, it’s just the accountability of like, I have to leave my house because I said I would meet Toya at this place at this time. And even just that accountability. Or, the other day when we were writing, we didn’t even speak. (LS & WB: Ha ha ha ha) You just walked into the room and I was already writing and then you were writing and then we had our breakthroughs in our own writing, but we didn’t know that until the end.
I would say that I don’t do well in a comfortable environment. Like, things need to be a little uncomfortable to be productive (AD: Ha ha ha), it’s so terrible but –
AD: What do you mean, can you say more?
[18:35]
WB: I find that my closest friends that are really supportive in my process…we don’t mesh well in like, what’s conducive to channeling our best writing. So, for example, Toya can write at home and is more comfortable at home. Um, Gladys and my other friends are like, no I’m not gonna leave today, I’m gonna work from home. I can’t do that. Or not that I can’t – I’m wondering what’s happening there in my blockage of, like, no I have to be in a more formal setting, or like…the basement of the GC library that has no windows. That’s where I get most of my work done. It’s so bad!
Like, I need that, and then I do do work, once it’s maybe in the later phase of like, ok I’m revising and editing or something like that, then I can be in something more comfortable like this. But I don’t know, when I have to grind, I have to put my playlist that’s called ‘Study and Write Shit’ and I have to just, write. In the dungeon of the GC. Ha ha.
[19:37]
LS: Alright, can we say what the GC is?
AD: The GC stands for the –
LS: Or wait, do we wanna say what it is? I mean, I guess, they can google…
AD: They can google us.
(Collective laughter)
LS: They can figure it out. Ok, so we can just say it.
WB: Yeah.
AD: So, we’re talking about the Graduate Center.
WB: For the City University of New York.
AD: Thank you.
RPR: Sound so official.
(Collective laughter)
AD: I know, I was like!
WB: CUNY, a public institution in New York City!
[19:59]
LS: Yeah, so, the two other ways I’m thinking about that it can look. Robert already talked about it was that, you meet, and so you say, ok this is what I’m working on, this is what I’m working on, this is what I’m working on…and then, like in an hour, everybody check in. This is what I got done. And you do that.
The other way is that people… you do your work outside, and then when you meet, you’re focusing on two people’s work and so you’re giving feedback and so you get the feedback and then, they’ll have however long to do their work and then the next time you meet, it’s another two people that you’re - everyone has given feedback to and you’re there to discuss the feedback.
[20:36]
RPR: Yeah.
LS: I don’t know if I can think of anything else.
RPR: Those are good. Yeah, we do that one with our advising group too. Like, someone’s work is on deck. And then we talk about it that week.
WB: Can’t relate.
(Collective laughter)
AD: (While laughing) Can’t relate, ha ha ha.
I was thinking of a different practice that I feel like, this has been helpful for me, because like, LaToya, you were talking about how, you don’t have control over like, what is actually gonna happen in the class, you’re hopeful and then, whatever happens. But, I found that some of the things that I’ve engaged in outside of academia, like being in NYC was one of the reasons I wanted to come to this program. Because there’s so much happening everywhere in a lot of different ways and so, some of the things have like reinvigorated why I’m like, studying what I’m studying, or like…even, it’s not even about what I’m studying, it’s just like, people doing amazing stuff. It’s just like, taking- I’ve taken courses in other like activist spaces, or talked to other groups. Like, I’ve been able to come to ItAG, the ItAG that both LaToya and Wendy did and just like, oh there are a group of educators who are wanting to ask these questions and…so like, putting yourself outside of an institution. Yeah.
[21:46]
RPR: I found my dissertation topic at the Schomburg and not in the archives. Like, I found it because they had a whole talk that night. And it was two dope ass CUNY professors, and Ericka Huggins from the Black Panther Party and I was like. She was like: ‘No one’s written a book’, I was like, ‘Challenge Accepted.’ Ha ha.
(Collective Laughter)
AD: You really took that suggestion!
RPR: But like, yeah. My whole phrase. I’ve said this a lot of times, I was like, ‘The city is my teacher.’ And so like, all kinds of events, looking at those opportunities to kind of like, teach me something I don’t know.
[22:20]
LS: I don’t know what question we answering right now, but what you said and what you – you being Atasi, and then you Robert – is I also remember what, I mean, I – real talk – do not remember why I decided to go the PhD route – like I have no idea.
But I think remembering like, like keep yourself grounded in the things that pushed you there. So like, as a classroom teacher – so I taught part time my first two years in the PhD program, but then most of us were activists and organizers, so still doing that stuff that grounded you because I think that’s the easiest way to get loss. Loss, with the two s’s – loss.
And the beast that is academia, the ivory tower, is to like, lose that grounding.
[23:06]
WB: Mhmm. And as cheesy as it sounds, the like, trusting the process is like, key to being in it 6 years. Ha ha ha. All the like, there’s a reason that things are developing in the pace that they are and that people constantly, I do think it’s key to like make – create your community of folks because I feel like, you all are the ones that are cheering me on or sending a text message to celebrate when it feels like impossible and the light at the end of the tunnel is like, nonexistent. It’s only that that keeps going. And then like, remembering why – your why, that you’re doing it, I think is a large part – even if it’s seven years in, or however long it takes.
[23:50]
RPR: You were talking about, trust the process. And no, you said something, and it reminded me of like, we have the – we have a writing question on there right? Is it too early to jump in? (No) Hahahaha.
LS: I was just about to take us there, cause you gotta write a lot. And, y’all let me tell you, I do not fucking like writing. I fucking hate this shit, but you have to write. You’re in a PhD program. So can we talk about – are you gonna talk about your writing process?
RPR: Yeah
LS: Yeah, so can we all talk about our writing process or what that, the process of writing is like? Whether or not you have a writing process?
[24:18]
RPR: Well, like I was talking about, years three and four, I had these markers cause I was with these groups. And then this year, my schedule is all over the place so I do a lot more of my writing by myself. I think, for me, this time, it’s been like, what day do I know that I’m…it’s almost like checking what day I’m more likely to write. And I know Mondays is like, hit or miss, I know Wednesday’s I will more than likely write a lot. Fridays and then the weekends I will write. Like, Friday’s hit or miss and then the weekends I will write. When I know that I have such limited time, it’s not gonna be like I’m gonna write five days out of the week or four days out of the week. I write from whatever’s the easiest part to write that day – what is going to be the least painful and I start there and then I let my groove go until, like, it’ll take me. So like, if that day I’m like, I get caught up in a concept and I know that I can keep writing for, if I still have the momentum, I won’t stop it. Even if I told myself I was only gonna write for four hours, if the momentum takes me six or seven, like, I’ll stick with it cause I don’t know when shit’s coming back. Ha ha haha. So like, when I have the groove, I stick with the groove, yeah.
[25:17]
AD: Uh, we’re all looking at each other, who’s gonna talk about their writing process?
(Laughing in the background)
AD: So…what’s my writing process? I think my writing is like, I have a difficulty thinking through writing. So people think about writing as thinking, so you like, it’s just another form that you’re putting what’s out and what kind of like internally working out. But for me, I’m like, I work in groups and I like to work with, among people. Even if it’s like all these different variations of like, you don’t talk to each other, you’re like in the same room, like that energy, something about the collective is really helpful. What I’ve found to be helpful is if I’m forced to present. Ha. Or if I am – not forced – if like, if I’m doing it for a reason. Like, if the reason is a group of teachers or if it’s for, whatever, whatever situation, that prepares me to be just like, physically present and like, able to talk about stuff. And as soon as I’m able to talk about stuff, things come out that I don’t think I would initially, you know…get down on paper.
Cause for me, what comes on paper is like, the words become traps. I feel like, academia has also taught me that. I wish I would have known that every word is like, an ecosystem of all these different battles and struggles that you don’t realize that you’re engaging in…until you start using that word, and then everybody’s like – well what do you mean by abolition? Well what do you mean by abolition? This is how, and so you’re like, oh my god! Wow, everything’s a battle. But when you’re talking with someone, or a group of people, your engagement with them is like, it’s about the words, but it’s also more than that so it’s like, I feel like I can figure out like, what’s the sense in the room. Or, how are we gonna make a convergence and then later on, write it out. But you don’t always get that opportunity like, right at this point in my doctoral process, which might be, I probably should just be trying to talk to people more often or something like that. But yeah, that’s mine. A little bit.
[27:15]
WB: When you were talking, I was thinking oh, authentic audience. That’s what we teach to students all the time. Like, you wanna create – or as teachers, we should create assignments where there’s a legit – where, someone’s legit going to read this, like, a Yelp review. And they’re practicing their writing skills but someone’s actually looking to see what you thought of that restaurant. So like, a teacher’s actually going to see Atasi’s work and say like, ‘Oh I never thought about that in my classroom!’ or ‘That wouldn’t work.’ That’s not typical of getting an authentic audience, so maybe I just need to think about writing for you all. Haha like, I’m just writing for you to explain my thoughts because I find it very very hard to write… because of the academic gaze.
That’s the part that I’m like no, having taught writing, that has helped me a lot to think about like, ok, I know that it’s a process, I know that I should just do a brain dump, I know I should get all my thoughts down. But, when I’m thinking about like, oh, I have to show this to my committee, my advisor has to see this. Last time we talked, she said this, blah blah blah blah, all of those things heighten my insecurity of writing, and that English is my second language and I still feel like my tense - verb tense agreement or something, something’s always a little off and then, then I’m just like I don’t wanna write and then I don’t write for weeks.
[28:33]
I wish I had your routine. Of like, you know like Wednesday’s you’re gonna write a lot, Friday - like I wish I knew what that could be like, but maybe, maybe I just need to make – maybe I just need to write more often…I don’t know. Or did you have that before the dissertation phase?
[28:42]
RPR: No. (Collective laughter) I wasn’t writing that much. Ha. So…
WB: No, Wednesdays you wear pink!
RPR: Right, Wednesdays I wear pink.
(Collective laughter continues)
RPR: Yes, tell the people. Um, for me it was like, one of those things I kind of picked up on, like I listened to my body and what my rhythms are, so once I recognized whatever the trend is – like I know, shout out to Ricardo who I text, on Wednesday mornings. If I don’t text him, he’ll text me. It’s like 9 or 10, he’s like, I’m starting at 11. I’m like, I got a meeting, I’m starting at noon. And we don’t really go into depth, it’s just like, I know I’m gonna write something and as long as I have that spot that I know I gotta tell Ricardo I did something, whatever it is that day – and that’s the only check-in I really have. Like on this week, or this time period, but I think for me, it’s also reminding myself – one of my students said this awhile ago, they were like, ‘Whenever I’m scared about presenting, I just say, you know, gather the confidence of a mediocre white man.’ Hahaha (Hahaha)
[29:48]
WB: Facts.
RPR: And I think, that’s like, and so, when I write now, I’m just like, I expect for my shit to be mediocre and I’m like, it needs to get done. It has to get done. And so my thing is like, just write and know that it’s gonna be – probably going to be shitty. And cringe but just write it. It’s not magical, but like, I don’t know, that’s…
(Ha ha ha)
[30:12]
WB: Well, I think also, looking at other pieces of writing or even alternative ways that like, words are not the only way that you’re going to communicate something, I think has been helpful to think like, you don’t have to do it how everyone else has already done it. So, I don’t know what that – like, that helps me imagine that I can do something. This can look a different way. I don’t know how it’s going to look in the end, but that we don’t have to do it the way every other traditional dissertation has done it.
[30:41]
AD: So I’m just thinking of like, how interesting our conversation is. And kind of like, there are so many connections that are like – yeah! I hear you, yeah, I agree with – like, I need to think of a different way. This is the – like, we’re questioning the audience and how we go about this. And then, there are so many other doctoral students and scholars who would totally be like, ‘No, I gotta be by myself.’ I know folks who are like, ‘Don’t talk to me about stuff, I wanna sit in my like, whatever siloed place’ and like, when I’m with my friends, we do other friend things, but we don’t talk about work. And so, I just wanted to like, you know, as we’re sharing kind of these tips or, you know, how we’re going about it, knowing that obviously people have a range of how they either want to be in collective or they want to think about alternatives, and other folks will be like, no, I’m writing for that 5 paragraph essay type thing. Cause I wanna be there, so.
[31:35]
LS: Yeah, I don’t think I have a writing process. It’s just the process of writing, I guess for me. I’ve already said it – I don’t like writing. Ha. I don’t like it one bit. I feel like it’s so restrictive and so rigid. But I feel like there are people who write and they can put emotions and things into their writing. I don’t know how to do that. Cause I feel like, you know like, I write like – I’m talking about my – I can just like, do a hand gesture and I don’t have to say the rest of the words cause my hand gesture, or if I suck my teeth, or there’s all these things that you do in combination with your words that tell the whole thing that you’re trying to say. But when you’re writing, you don’t have that. Like, I can’t, you know I can’t do the Black girl hand gestures, in my writing. I can’t suck my teeth in writing, so I don’t know how to like, put that in. And so like, then it’s just, when I go to write – and I think what I - ok so maybe I do have a writing process – so what I’ve learned (Ha ha ha ha)…
Ok, so I used to start at like, oh this is what it’s supposed to sound like with academia. Like, really this stuffy and no one talks like this, and so, I used to – I would start there and I would get so stuck that I couldn’t write. So now, I just, even though I can’t like, put all the things in, I just start writing how I would say it if I was like talkin to y’all. So now I also have to like, search for the n word, because I put it all up in there, and then I take that and then I like translate it (Ha ha ha ha) and then I take that, and then I translate it again. So it’s going through like, translations from like how I would speak if I’m like with my folks, or if I’m with my friends, and then I go – and that’s a long time. But, that’s how I do it. But then at the end, it’s still like, not my voice, I don’t think.
[33:03]
But for my second exam, I also, I put music into it. Not music that I make, but just like a song. Like this song says everything that I need, that I want to say so I don’t need to say it, just go listen to this song. And to me that’s just, that’s valid.
RPR: Mhmm.
LS: They accepted it.
[33:17]
WB: And artwork.
LS: Ha ha. Oh yeah and I did artwork. I did artwork too.
WB: Yeah, it was beautiful. Super inspiring.
AD: Mhmm.
LS: Aw, thanks guys.
WB: Yeah. #goals
LS: Ok, but that’s still not kind of a process. I don’t have a process of like, when I sit down, I first do this, and then I do this. I will say just, don’t beat yourself up if it’s like, oh man, every time I’m like, I wanna leave my house by 8, but I don’t leave my house until like 10 or…(Ha ha ha) I was supposed to be doing this, but I don’t, like that…
WB: Guilty, ha ha
LS: That’s your process. That means that you, whatever time you get up, you’re mulling around – mulling – that’s a, I don’t know what that, that’s the word right?
Collective: Yeah.
LS: Mulling around…that’s a weird word, mulling.
AD: Ha ha ha ha
LS: Mulling around. Like, that’s your process. That’s what you need to get on wit your day and then maybe when you actually get to when you’re writing, it’s only an hour when you wanted to work for four. That’s not your process. Writing for four hours is not your process, it’s one. So I think, just recognizing that and being real with yourself.
[34:13]
AD: I – so, in hearing and thinking about like, to honor, and kind of like, what it is that you’re, how you’re going about it – it’s hard to do in practice. To not be like, ‘I should have done…’ whatever it is that I said to myself or that, I notice like others are doing or like, how they’re going about it. To be disciplined, or to be, all these things cause you know, as doctoral students – some folks are teaching or working full time. Others are not, others are on scholarship, or you know, fellowship. Or you know, there’s lots of, a variety of like, financial situations. You know, and that is a very –
(Collective laughter)
If you didn’t hear the oof. There was a. So I think, to really acknowledge that those financial pressures and like, tensions that - you are real, that you are like, having to deal with, really impact kind of like, how you engage with like, letting things be. Like, you know, let it go, or you know, being ok with it. I mean, I think like, people are struggling in lots of ways. Institutions are struggling with supporting students. Doctoral students and let alone like, undergrads – whatever, it’s a mess. It’s a hot mess.
But I think that there’s – in thinking about the writing process, it’s not disconnected from everything else that we’re dealing with. Sometimes we’re trying to create space to like, allow ourselves to be. Like, what LaToya, you shared like, all the art and the music that you shared was like a resistance. It was like, an enactment of, despite all these things, you know, there was deadlines, there was like fellowship deadlines, all these other things going on – you’re like, no. This is how I need to express what I want to say about science education and all this stuff is gonna do it. And that’s beautiful. It’s hard to see it when you’re in the midst of doing it. And I think it’s hard to recognize it cause you’re just like, god damn, I just gotta… you know, like, how else… and I remember, like, in the writing process, we were all kinda around the GC a lot more often and seeing each other and checking in and like. I don’t know if it wou – if you would say like, yeah this is my writing process. You know, it’s just like, now in hindsight, it’s like, that shit was dope. That was amazing, you know.
RPR: Mhmm.
[36:26]
AD: Yeah.
LS: Can we – this is not one of our questions, but something, Atasi, that you just said – can y’all talk about what it’s like being a person of color and/or a queer person of color in a PhD program, and maybe just insights on that? Like, what folks might experience.
[36:44]
WB: So, well, my work is on Ethnic Studies and centering Women of Color, and yet, there are like no women of color for my committee because the reality of academia is just like, folks of color in general, then women of color, and the way that academia treats a lot of women of color, then…your options are limited to even have that mentorship and then, when you do have one that doesn’t guarantee that that mentorship is gonna be great. So, it does become that most of the people you’re surrounded – spoiler alert! – are white. Ha ha. (Collective laughter)
LS: Unless you’re at a HBCU. Or an Indigenous or Native college.
WB: Yeah! And, that’s really, I don’t know what else. I really, I, went to a public, predominantly Chicano, like public school in LA, for undergrad. And I commuted and everyone was older than me because they were transferring from like, community college. So, moving to New York and having an experience at NYU that was awful and like, now I’m exposing everyone – (Collective Laughter) – and then.. now this experience was better, but I was really surprised by like, I don’t know…I guess I was naïve to think that this was going to be different because of the people in the program. That’s not reflective of who’s teaching you and then, those are the people with power that then get to make the decisions of how you experience things.
[38:13]
And then, as a Chicana, like there aren’t – I actually don’t think there’s any other Chicana in our program. Ha ha.
AD: Wow, really? WB: I don’t think so. And then in my cohort, I was the only Latinx person, like of any gender. Yeah. It’s a shitty situation as most people can imagine, I’m sure. And that it’s infuriating to see so many white people doing work on your community, and they’re the expert and you’re like, fuck outta here, you’re not the expert. You’re talking about my like, abuelita, you’re talking about my mom, you’re talking about like, my cousins, my students, as if you know this, and I live this. And…it’s really frustrating.
So that’s kind of what, like what you were saying Atasi, where like, what are we really contributing and stuff like that. Like, I have that all the time and then I think of the white people, ha ha ha, and then I’m like enraged and I’m like, no. We need to be the ones telling our own experiences and our own stories.
[39:09]
And just having to constantly remind them like, to, please go study your own people and your own shit and go figure out your own shit. Yeah. In a space that like, it’s academia so like, everyone knows all the terms and the things to say, and it’s like, nah, but you’re still trash.
[39:26]
LS: Yes, be prepared. You might read someone’s work…and like, yeah, it’s so dope, so radical. And then you meet them in person, it’s like - ooh you do this for a paycheck. This is a paycheck. Not a way of living. Which is very hard. I think everybody in this room has quote, unquote, “radical” politics. I say quote, unquote, because… what’s radical when Trump is the president, ha ha ha. (Collective laughter).
RPR: Preach.
(Collective laughter continues)
LS: But I mean, not quote “radicals” for us. Y’all know what I’m trying to say.
RPR: I know what you mean.
LS: And it’s like, when you, for me – I will speak from the I…like, when I write about something, I actually try to live it and it’s not easy. So it’s really like, upsetting and disappointing when like, the lived realities of people who are consistently like facing oppression and the world just wasn’t made for them to survive, like…studying them is a paycheck as opposed to this work is supposed to move us toward liberation. You know. So prepare to be not supported.
[40:27]
AD: I was thinking of like, my first year. And so Robert, our first year. And, that what the agenda is – when you’re coming into, when we were coming into a program, you’re learning about how to be a doctoral student, how to be an academic. So some of those first courses are kind of like, setting that stage for you and I recall kind of like, the way in which the program like, talks about criticality and you’re in a city where in which, you know, it’s really difficult, or you have to be really willfully ignoring kind of what’s happening around you to not let that be a part of the conversation or not let that reality of students and their lives and communities and all the different things – from policing to whatever, to impact how we talk about schooling and how we talk about curriculum.
And so, like, like, I remember that first year and how like, bringing that into the conversation was almost seen as like an affront. Like, I remember these conversations about like, talking about white supremacy or talking about, why is this not centered, why are we not talking about how schooling – the process of creating schools – was also a process of undoing processes of learning and doing of indigenous communities so that, you know like, it was like…oh they didn’t have schooling or something like that. The deficiency rhetoric was then reproduced and so, I remember that first year and like how, who brought up those conversations were always students of color. And, how that was then received was, it’s like the same thing, you know. We see this happen in many different places where the person who’s speaking up are maligned or become kind of like, individually, like something is individually wrong with you as opposed to a systemic thing, so in talking about something systemic or bringing up something that’s about – it doesn’t have to be personal, it can be just about, here’s the nature of what this is, and so I think that…but if you’re a student of color who’s bringing up something that is about some systemic issues, that it’s possible that you will be maligned.
[42:40]
Yeah. Meaning like, it’s wrested on, it’s like a way of pointing blame to you as an individual that has an issue. As an individual issue as opposed to something that should be considered and also that’s a part of a larger system. Right.
[42:57]
WB: Can I add something to that?
RPR: Go for it.
WB: No, I – as you were speaking, I was thinking of people in that first year that I think, because this is giving advice, I hope that getting into a program, like – you are worthy and deserving of being in that space. And I felt that in my cohort, outside of the classroom, we would have all these conversations of like, what is going on or, why didn’t someone ask about this or why aren’t we being more critical? But then in that space, no one would speak up. Everyone was kind of just playing nice of like, we’re lucky to be here, so we’re just – including myself! I was very much like…are you sure you accepted me? Like, in comparison to like, other peoples’ things that like, GREs and like stupid things like, they’ve been published before even coming here and things like that. That I was just like, I don’t agree with a lot of these things but I’m teaching full time and rush to get here afterwards, I’m just gonna play it cool and turn in and meet the deadlines. And that didn’t help me because now I’m doing so many more things to like, catch up to that year 1, 2 and 3 of just like, going with the flow because I don’t feel like I really belong here or I’m worthy of being in this space.
[44:13]
LS: Yeah, if I could just expand on that and what I said earlier. Be prepared to not be supported. Like, schools LOOOVE us. Love us. Love us. They make it look really good, they can tell their, you know, board or whatever. They can put us on a pamphlet. But they don’t love what needs to be done to actually support students like us.
[44:37]
So when I said prepare not to be supported, I think Wendy sort of just touched on it. Like, we’re supposed to be thankful that we’re even here. And so when we bring up issues that, how do you actually support like a queer Black woman? How do you actually support a queer Black man? How do you support..? And it’s like woah, they don’t wanna hear it. So, that’s…I think just, circling back to everything that we’ve already said is t hen, how do you find a support system when you know the institution isn’t going to.
[45:01]
RPR: That’s real. Um, dang. Y’all covered a lot. I came out when I got here. That was a whole thing, ha ha ha. I think, kind of being open and ready to kind of engage in my queer consciousness, my queer being, and all these other spaces where it was kind of like, divided, um, was huge. But being, the only Black man in my cohort and noticing that that was a trend in the Urban Education program. And one cohort had no Black dudes. So I was like, what does that mean? So like, not only does it mean that like, alright I’m trying to navigate this as a Black man, but I’m navigating this as a queer Black man. Like, when half of our professors that first semester were like white men. Hahah. And then, just finding those spaces in between like…recognizing that there’s a certain kind of game like, cis white men play. Like, cis het white men play and I was like, what does this mean? And like, figuring out like – I don’t know, I feel like, like in a lot of spaces I find myself…especially the first two years, like, keeping my mouth shut until like there’s a…the moment happens where I can speak.
[46:09]
I remember there were times when I would. I don’t even know if you remember, like that first year, like…people would be talking forever and ever and ever, and you know I love to talk, but I couldn’t even interject. There wasn’t even a space for me to interject in the room. And so I’d have to wait until like 40 minutes into the class to finally raise my hand and then my speech would be longer because I’d be like, here are five points I’ve been waiting to talk about for the past 45 minutes. And I have to go through a list of the five…hahah. Because I couldn’t talk. There’s weirdness like, I don’t know like…I feel like people like to collect Black people and I feel like that’s a whole thing. I feel like people like to collect Black people and I’ve seen it in other panels. The sad part is when I look at Black scholars on the other side, who have a shit ton of white students studying African American studies, Black education, so the thing is that like, there’s no space for me outside of here.
In this program, I’ve like, felt my sense of silences, but for the most part, my joys have been in the classes I’ve taken with Black professors. Um, all my classes Africana Studies have been like huge, shout out to Robyn Spencer, who’s changed my entire life. She’s also on my committee. She also be, like writing all these letters for me, so thank you Robyn Spencer. Um, Mary Phillips – but even the way like, whose voices get privileged. Like, Mary Phillips, I couldn’t even put her in my three because she doesn’t have a Graduate Center appointment because there’s this whole hierarchy system about like, what like – you need to be at least Associate Professor status. Like, ways that even the people who I want to speak with me and for me, can’t get leverage, and then when I finish this program, I’m gonna be on the other side… where will I be? I have a Black ass dissertation topic. Toya and I talk about this, Black ass dissertation topic about Black kids, it’s all about Black history, and then I probably will not have an African American Studies, Africana Studies placement…I’ll be lucky if I get a dual placement. And so, as a Black man studying Black stuff, I know that the likelihood that there’s gonna be a white woman at Princeton or at Rutgers, or even at a CUNY school, who’s probably gonna be more quickly ready to get the job that they’re studying because they’re not a member of the communities that they’re studying.
[48:13]
(Whew.)
LS: Yeah.
RPR: I’m a little miffed.
(Collective laughter)
LS: Ok, you gave shoutouts, I wanna shout out Vilna Bashi Treitler, who’s now out in Cali. I don’t remember which university. Her class was dope AF…as fuck. And then Ruthie Wilson Gilmore, who’s class on Racial Capitalism is how I came to the concept, like developed the concept of Abolition Science.
[48:41]
We’re at 58 minutes. What do we – what do you hope for? Interpret it any way…maybe your dissertation, I don’t know. What do we mean by that?
[48:49]
AD: So, what do you hope for like, as you’re kind of thinking of like, as you’re gonna be finishing as our hope in all of our work is gonna be to finish this…yeah! What do you hope for at the end of this? Or, in this, while you’re going through it? Cause we’re all still writing.
LS: Everybody’s making a face, Robert’s… haha.
WB: No, I was, I wanna say…that… LS: Wendy’s like.. hahaha.
WB: Something that, it wasn’t one of the questions but I think that maybe you all would agree with me too, but that I didn’t expect this to be such a personal transformative process. And that’s what it has been. And that’s why I think it’s worthwhile, and that’s why I would not change anything about it. And again, corny but, the people that I’ve met and the friends in this very room have been…like, those relationships are strengthened in a way that no other process could. Yeah, could bring you that close to someone when you’re like at a breaking point and those are the people that uplift you again.
[49:56]
And what I hope for is that, I listen to the universe and to trust the journey and the process because I’m like, dead set on getting out in a year from now. But I also keep thinking about my ‘why’, or what, why did I do this to begin with? Or what inspires me? And I want to write a dissertation that is accessible to my mami and abuelita and my students and if I can’t do that in a year, then I need to just wait and do it at whatever pace because I don’t think that it’s worth going through these six, almost seven years to then create something that I’m not entirely proud of. Or proud of, but for whom. So, it’s really for them, and yeah, so I hope that doing that also doesn’t like, screw up my career choices, or chances, afterwards. So that’s what I hope for.
[50:54]
RPR: Oh wow.
(Collective laugh)
AD: You weren’t expecting the mic.
(Collective laugh continues)
RPR: Woah, I wasn’t ready for that. Um, thank you, please please.
LS: Um, what do I hope for? Ha. What do I want for Christmas? #achristmasstory. Yes, a Red Ryder BB Gun. (Ha ha ha).
(Convo in background, and continued collective laughter.)
Wendy, you brought up something about the personal transformation part, which I think is, important. Like, I had an opportunity to step away from teaching and then go back into teaching – I mean, I was pushed out, but whatever, that’s another topic. I’m still bit – I’m not bitter about it at all, but I am. But I feel like every teacher deserves this opportunity to sort of step away from the classroom and think about what teaching can or should be. And so I’m incredibly thankful for that. So I hope that my dissertation or work lends itself to science education, to sort of just re-think it. Cause lawd is it, you know, kind of a mess. It’s not a, I mean, a mess – it’s not a mess if you exist in that framework and believe in that framework of white supremacy and Eurocentrism. But it is a mess if you don’t subscribe to that.
[52:12]
I don’t know, I feel like, when you’re on Twitter, you have all those blue checkmarks, you know. So I feel like you get a PhD and then you become a blue checkmark, but the blue checkmarks are never wrong. Like, if you’re ever on Twitter, just, they’re never wrong. When folks like, bring up critiques and this, the blue checkmarks are never wrong and they’re always right and I was like, what happened between, being a grad student – sometimes there’s grad students that think they’re always right, but it’s…it’s been such a process of self-doubt along the way. Self-doubt and like, losing confidence, that I don’t ever want to get there. So, I hope that I can continue to stay grounded, that this work is like, the beginning of something that continues to move me. To want to move towards liberation, but also hopefully moves others to that too. Damn blue checkmarks.
(Collective laughter)
[53:01]
AD: I was like, blue checkmarks? Oh man!
LS: The blue checkmarks, they’re never wrong. It’s always so fascinating. Sorry, I’m going off…
AD: No, I like that. I didn’t, I haven’t, it’s true. But it’s to always be questioning. Like, I was thinking of like, the people who read the blue checkmarks, as like co-sign, confirming something that we should always be challenging. Like, why not challenge the things that, ha those statements say? You know?
[53:27]
I think from what both Wendy and Toya, what you said, and I’m like yeah! It’s about why and who I’m doing it for. Cause, I love teaching. I really love being in an environment of, and being a part of learning, constantly. Like really learning, not like fake learning where you’re like prescribed to do, whatever, however many articles and chapters whatever and present. But like, being really curious and so, I hope to keep that present. Like, I’m here for all kinds of learners, and for learners that don’t think of themselves as learners, who question that they’re thinkers, but they are. Cause we all are. We’re all creative people and can always change. Like, change is constantly happening and is possible, so that feels hopeful to say it. Like, I’m getting that because of what you all were sharing so far, and so, I hope to leave with that same kind of like, yeah. This is why I came! It is such an amazing opportunity to like, not have to necessarily teach. Even though people do full time while they’re in the program, but like, to think, to have this bird’s eye view of a whole entire history of a system is like, unreal.
Cause those, all the questions you ask – like, why is it like, why is the school day like this? Or what is, where does that come from? And then you get to freakin learn about it and then study it and then add something – that’s pretty cool. It’s painful and cool at the same time but...
[54:56]
RPR: I think the, yeah, as painful as this process has been, that the individual learning, I would co-sign onto. I would also say like, I don’t know, like I feel like this experience has been – I wouldn’t trade it for the world. Now I sound cheesy. (Collective laughter) But like, so Yolanda Sealey-Ruiz, I keep shouting out all these Black women, #CiteBlackWomen, but she told me, ha, I was like, a half step between going to TC and going to the Grad Center, and she was like, I think you should go with the Grad Center. Like, when I met her officially officially in person, like a year later, she like, was like super sweet. She was like, ‘How was your presentation?’, like had checked in and then the things she told me. She was like, ‘Are they taking care of you over there?’ I said, ‘Yes, ma’am.’ Ha ha. And then she said, you are exactly where you’re supposed to be. Um, you are brilliant and you’re in a space where people should pay you for your brilliance.
[55:46]
LS: Oooh.
RPR: And so I was like, wha- and that kind of statement for me has been like, the one thing I needed somebody to tell me to unlock whatever it was. And so like, whenever I get like, down, I’m always like – I’m exactly where I need to be. I’m exactly where – and this feels like that space for me. And then I think for, the next stage, I want to remember that. So to answer the hope question, my hope is that I always find myself in the spaces that I’m supposed to be in.
[56:11]
LS: Oh!
RPR: Like, I want that to always be where I am. And so, as much as I feel like really unsure about where I am in the future, I know that I didn’t come to this space to not end up in the space that is supposed to be where I’m supposed – like the people who I’m supposed to touch or the people who are supposed to be touching my life – don’t say touch cause it sounds gross, but like, the ways that lives are like – the lives I’m supposed to interact with, I wanna be exactly there. And whatever constellation or configuration of folks who are gonna help us all get free – I wanna be where they are and I want…that’s what I want, yeah.
[56:42]
AD: No, thank you for all sharing. I feel like, this is a different kind of episode, cause we’re not just like, asking questions but it’s like, I feel like we’re co-creating something together just in talking so.
LS: We are. And, we ask every guest this, and we forgot to ask y’all this – cause I get distracted. Y’all can see that when I’m talking, I’m like, I’m talking about something and then, uh, this is also why I hate writing cause I don’t think clearly…anyway! We’ve been talking about the process as students of color going through graduate school, what are some go-to…a go-to song, maybe a go-to album? A go-to something, that like got you through? That like ok, my shit was a little fucked up, you need to remind yourself of like who the fuck you was, what did you listen to?
[57:29]
WB: Well, my go-to, like writing stuff is always Tupac. I like Rage Against the Machine, like some Mexican like…
LS: How very Cali.
(Collective laughter)
WB: And, Los Tigres Del Norte, like, always remind me of my parents and the struggle as immigrants, undocumented – like all those things, like, I have to feel those things to write and that gets me through. But also like, when I am like broken, Solange, of course. And “Holy” by Jamila Woods, everyone should listen to that song, it’s really beautiful, of like, you are whole and you are worthy. Kind of like, what you were saying, the advice that you got, in a song. Yeah.
[58:12]
RPR: When I’m trying to get in the writing zone, always go back to Destiny’s Child, Writing’s on the Wall, cause that was my album. But I feel like, this time of year, it’s Christmas, I listen to their Christmas album, Destiny’s Child. Like, something…
(Ha ha ha ha)
WB: Twelve days of Christmas? Ha ha ha
RPR: Eight days of Christmas, thank you.
(Ha ha ha ha)
RPR: But mostly Knowles-ish. Lately, what’s been coming back to me is Jazmine Sullivan albums. Her first album is entitled Fearless, and so like, there’s a song called “Fear” and I like, I play that when – I’ve been playing that one a lot lately. And then, off her, I forgot what the name of it, it’s the third album, something show, Reality Show, TV…something show, y’all can clarify this when you post it [*Per Request Note: Yes! The album is Reality Show (2015).] Reality Show, is I think is what it’s called. She has this one song, it’s called “Mona Lisa” and she’s talking about herself as the masterpiece, I’m like, I’m here for it. But yeah, Jazmine Sullivan, and plus, she’s just got a beautiful voice, so yeah.
LS: So when, whew, times are really rough, I will listen to, Nina Simone, “Blackbird”, just like on repeat, on repeat for like hours. And then also, Moana. Even though I - there’s controversy surrounding Moana, um, it’s a contradiction that I hold. But, there were moments when I watched that movie like every day for several months. And it just got me through, Moana.
(Singing) Moana!
AD: Ha ha ha.
WB: That is a really good song, the theme song, of Moana.
AD: Man, I always have a hard, hard time answering that, what gets me through – because it’s not necessarily music. I feel like-
WB: Macy’s runs…
AD: Ha ha – what’s that? WB: Macy’s runs.
LS: Ha ha ha
AD: Ha ha! It’s mostly shopping. Hahahaha.
AD: No, that’s a recent occurrence. Ha ha ha. No, because I think I use, because this is the thing – I don’t pay attention to lyrics in music. I’ve been thinking about that. I always kind of like go with the beat or the tone underneath that kind of like, that I’m listening to or paying attention to, so it’s always hard for me to kind of like, figure out, what is getting me through music wise? I end up going to genres, like, recently, I really like, I don’t know, there’s like certain like, blues artists that I like kind of put on, and I’m like, wow, it’s been a long time since I’ve heard something like…growing up in the South and kind of like, I would travel quite a bit with my family, through the South. And like, some of the music that you know, is just from the area, it kind of like reminds me of home a little bit. And just like, not being in New York. I think things that transport me out of the place, so I don’t have a particular song that comes to mind. Cause I’m not a lyric person. Like I – I’ll listen to songs and I’ll be like (whispering) I don’t know what the lyrics are. (/end whispering) I have no idea. Yeah.
[1:01: 00]
LS: That’s when you make the lyrics up.
AD: Which I do.
LS: Ok, I know we’re, this is like a longer than normal episode, and we’re taking up folks’ time and y’all gotta go. But..(Ha ha ha) last thing, because we talked about – what are some joyous moments? Because we talked a lot, it’s not all like…doom and gloom. But what are some joyous moments?
[1:01:21]
RPR: I’m gonna go first this time, I love going to conferences with y’all. Like –
(Collective laughter)
RPR: Yo! So much fun. Ha!
(Collective laughter continues)
RPR: I didn’t think conferences could be – yeah, but I don’t know. When you go to conferences, like, I enjoy conferences with y’all cause it’s like Imma get whatever Imma get from the sessions, and most of the time, you know like, you have to sit through like, three bad panels. Like, three bad people on a panel before you get to that one good person, but like, I know like, in between, I’m gonna have dinner with y’all. We’re gonna go dancing tonight, it’s gonna be a Black and Brown party or something. There’s something about traveling with y’all that feels like, I’m with a squad.
[1:02:00]
LS: That’s a good one.
RPR: And that, just – mmmm! Mm mm!
(Collective laughter)
LS: And we’ve done several conferences together – we’ve been, yeah. I, yes – that’s a good one. Joyous moments y’all.
[1:02:11]
AD: I was gonna say like, in the city, the fun things outside of, that you do with each other. So, I remember the first year, I went to, the first year I went to this variety international house, at the international house, a variety show. And then, it kind of like, became this, like, dance party. And then like, moved to this karaoke spot in Harlem, which was amazing. And then I returned to the same karaoke spot for various like, birthday occasions. It was so surprising and so much fun. Cause a, like I talked about earlier, about not knowing lyrics, I also like, have a hard time, like, singing, but I have now, I love doing karaoke. That, was so surprising!
(Yay!)
AD: Oh my god, but you have to have the screen in front of me and then maybe like two other people beside me, but I’ll get it. It was fun. So yeah, yeah, that’s a fun time.
[1:03:05]
RPR: Ha ha.
WB: Karaoke at my apartment. In front, it’s just the TV – but that has been a joyous moment. That has been, several times.
LS & RPR: Ha ha ha.
WB: And then I’m criticized for my closing song always, cause it’s usually something sad.
LS: Songs, plural.
(Collective laughter)
LS: It’s not just one sad song. Ha ha ha. You gotta be ready for the night to end if you pass the mic to Wendy. Because…you gonna cry. It’s gonna be joyous, all everybody’s gonna be sad and crying. I haven’t even been in a relationship and I’m like, am I going through a breakup?
(Collective laughter)
WB: True story…But, another highlight, well one thing I will say about, I guess the PhD experience. Is there was a class where I was able to take an interview that I had with my abuelita and make a short film out of that, and I don’t think outside of this space and that time and having that audio available and having that opportunity, the time to even interview her, would I have been able to make that, and now I really hope that that story lives on beyond me. That like, finally in like, my lineage, like my – if I am granted children, or whatever – but like, people can see their ancestors for the first time, like ever. And so that was like a very powerful and joyous and like, incredible experience.
[1:04:32]
LS: Yeah, I mean, I think y’all have touched on it all. Conferences…I’m just gonna re-say what y’all said… karaoke, but also I think that, like I do have like, amazing friendships out of this and just like, you know…the moments that we share. Now that’s cheesy but y’all know what I’m trying to say. Like to always have people that will show up for you is like a beautiful thing, and like, not expecting anything in return. So y’all aren’t here – y’all didn’t show up to do this episode with us because y’all are expecting us to do something for - y’all are here because you genuinely support us. And I think, that’s just a beautiful thing to have been able to develop these types of friendships.
[1:05:16]
LS: Thank you Wendy and Robert for joining us!
AD: Thank you! Yes!
LS: And sharing your wisdom and knowledge. And so hopefully this will be useful to folks out there.
AD: I hope that other, if you’re already in grad school, find your people. I hope you already have your people.
LS: Yeah.
AD: Come be with us.
LS: Yes! If you’re in New York, we’re in New York! I don’t really like to go below, 125th…
(Collective laughter)
LS: Yeah, if you’re a grad student in New York, hit us up. We’ll do a writing thing. I’m ignoring them, they’re coming for me, ha ha ha.
RPR: I wasn’t coming for you.
LS & AD: Ha ha ha.
(Collective laughter)
AD: But I hope that everyone can find a way to make this meaningful for you, for whoever you’re doing it for and the work continues. The work must be done, for yeah, whatever, for a lot of reasons. Thanks!
[1:06:11]
[♫ Musical outro.]
AD: Check us out at Abolition Science [dot] org, where you can sign up for our newsletter.
LS: And follow us on Instagram @abolitionscience and also follow us on Twitter @abolition_sci
AD: See you soon!
NYCoRE: http://www.nycore.org/
Links to Learn more about folks who were given Shoutouts:
Robyn Spencer – https://robyncspencer.com/ or https://www.gc.cuny.edu/Page-Elements/Academics-Research-Centers-Initiatives/Doctoral-Programs/History/Faculty-Bios/Robyn-C-Spencer
Vilna Bashi Treitler - https://www.blackstudies.ucsb.edu/people/vilna-bashi-treitler
Ruth Wilson Gilmore - https://www.gc.cuny.edu/Faculty/Core-Bios/Ruth-Wilson-Gilmore
Yolanda Sealey-Ruiz - https://www.tc.columbia.edu/faculty/ys2061/
