DNA Technology and Racial Becoming
In this episode, we speak with Dr. Devin A. Heyward, Assistant Professor of Sociology and Gender Studies at Saint Peters University about her work around genetic ancestry testing, DNA, and racial becoming. Dr. Heyward's work intersects Black diasporic studies, urban studies, psychology, history, and theatre. Check out this conversation as it crosses a wide range of issues and fields of study!
L to R: Atasi, Dr. Heyward, and LaToya in the South Bronx in front of a vibrant community mural.
Tweet Dr. Heyward: @Dev.Heyward
Dr. Heyward’s Song: Almeda by Solange
Transcript (Please Excuse Errors)
[Music Intro ♫]
LaToya [LS]: Hey listeners! Welcome to Abolition Science Radio, we’re your hosts. I’m LaToya Strong-
Atasi [AD]: And I’m Atasi Das. We’re here to talk all things science and math and their relationship to-
LS: Colonialism
AD: Oppression
LS: Resistance
AD: Education
LS: Liberation
AD: And so much more.
[ ♫ Music fade out.]
[0:25]
AD: So, welcome to a whole new episode of Abolition Science Radio. Yes! We have an audience of, four!
Dr. Devin Ade Heyward (DAH): Ha ha ha ha.
LS: If we’re doing a show, do we count as an audience?
AD: Oh yeah.
LS: I don’t think we do.
AD: Ok. Well anyways, welcome back to the show and, this week we have a really exciting show for you, with a new guest, Devin Heyward – Dr. Devin Heyward.
LS: So, we’re trying something new.
AD: Yeah.
LS: So, usually we introduce our guests and then the guest comes on. But we’re just gonna try to do the introduction, and by we – Devin, can you introduce yourself?
[1:04]
DAH: Sure, so my name is Dr. Devin Heyward, I’m an Assistant Professor of Sociology –
LS: Ayyyyy!
DAH: Ayy ayyy! Sociology and Urban Studies at Saint Peter’s University. Um, I’m also the Director of Gender and Sexuality Studies at Saint Peter’s.
LS: Where are you born and raised?
DAH: Bronx, New York! Boogie down!
LS: Ayyyyyy!
DAH: Ayyyy!
(Ha ha ha ha ha)
AD: As we are recording from the Bronx.
DAH: I know, look at that. Ha ha.
LS: As you all know, we always ask our guests, start off by asking them what they’re listening to.
DAH: Oh, so right now, I have been heavy into Solange.
LS: Ok.
DAH: Like I’ve been re-listening A Seat at the Table, and her most recent album who’s name is slipping my mind right now.
AD: Ha ha.
DAH: But, those –
LS: When I Get Home.
DAH: When I Get Home, thank you. Yeah, so, I’ve been playing those albums pretty heavily these last couple weeks.
LS: Is there any particular song, that…?
DAH: It’s a tie between “Bins” and “Dreams”. Um, I’ve been kinda like, something about them have been like, speaking to me. And I can’t quite put my finger on it but yeah, those have been, kind of in heavy rotation.
[2:10]
LS: Ok. Ok, ok.
AD: Nice, great. Thanks again for joining us!
DAH: You’re welcome.
AD: We’ve been excited about this, having this conversation with you.
DAH: Mhmm.
AD: And, uh, and like, learning from you. Just to be kinda open with our listeners, we’ve known you for a number of years and seen you like, create this amazing piece of work, so.
(Aw.)
AD: Yeah! I’m excited!
DAH: I’m excited too. Ha ha ha.
AD: (…) Should we jump right in?
LS: Mhmm.
AD: Just, to kind of give everybody’s a context – you are, have a degree in Critical Social Psychology? Right.
DAH: Mhmm.
AD: And, you have done this – your research on the topic that we’re gonna talk about today which is genetic ancestry testing. Maybe you could just start us off – what is that? DAH: Sure.
AD: What is genetic ancestry testing?
[2:53]
DAH: So, genetic ancestry testing has probably been around for the past 20-30 years as like, an option for people to do. But, it really only entered into the public in the late 90s, early 2000s. Yeah, somewhere in that range. And basically, with genetic ancestry testing, we are taking saliva or blood, depending on, you know, what test you take – but usually it’s saliva. Collecting a sample and then basically, testing for “junk DNA.” And so, junk DNA is basically – it’s data, or DNA, that doesn’t necessary change human function. So, it’s basically like, if we divide the number 31 in half, like, there’s a repeating number at the end. And that repeating number doesn’t necessarily change the core of it, it’s just junk DNA.
And so that junk basically tells us that there’s a connection across several familial lines.
AD: Mhmm.
DAH: And so the closer, or the more STR – short tandem repeats – or junk DNA, you have, the more likely it is that you’re related to a particular group of people.
[3:56]
AD: Ok, so, I’m gonna back up a little bit.
DAH: Sure.
AD: And just, as I’m thinking of if I was talking to my niece and nephew, (DAH: Sure) who are in high school, DNA – we’re talking about in our body, we have genes that are made up of DNA, I forget what DNA stands for…
LS: Deoxyribonucleic acid.
DAH & AD: Thank you!
DAH: Ha ha ha!
AD: Scientists, that’s right, that’s why we’re here. And those are, made up of…?
LS: Nucleotides.
AD: And, er like, kinda different codes? LS: Mhmm.
AD: Of what’s expressed, is that true?
[4:27]
DAH: Yeah, so like, I can’t remember the exact chemicals, but GACT are like the building blocks of DNA. And the idea is that, you know, based on these different combinations, you get different things. So like, hair color, hair texture, it’s all kind of interconnected whether or not you – you know, cilantro tastes like soap or if it tastes like cilantro.
AD: Hmmm.
DAH: Like, it’s all kind of based in this code.
[4:50]
And so, we all share this common genetic link called mtDNA, so it’s something that’s passed from a mother to all of her children. Um, at the core of it, all family history can be connected back to the original woman. Which is a different conversation, but (AD: Ok) there’s this common genetic link that we all share.
[5:10]
AD: So, there’s genetic linkages, and this thing called expression –
DAH: Mhmm.
AD: And so, what does this have to do with ancestry? And um, cause you talked about, you are – to be able to do this ancestry testing, you are taking your saliva (DAH: Mhmm) and you’re testing for this thing called junk DNA, (DAH: Mhmm) – can you tell us, like what does it have to do with knowing about, I guess, history?
DAH: Yeah, and so, for a lot of folks, especially when we think about like, an American context, and the history of like, the Trans-Atlantic slave trade, for Black Americans, this is like often times, like the first point of contact to a specific country. So this is meant to for, and is used by a lot of Black American populations, as a way to sort of like, pinpoint on a map like, ‘Yo, I’m from Ghana.’ And so, using this test is meant more so to sort of answer these questions of like, lineage, family history, where we’re coming from. It can, depending on the type of test you do, can tell you a bit about human migration patterns. But for the most part, it’s meant to sort of connect you to a specific place and a specific group of peoples in said place.
[6:17]
AD: Mhmm. Thanks.
DAH: Mhmm.
AD: Thanks for giving that.
LS: And can you say – what do you mean it could tell us about migration patterns?
[6:24]
DAH: So, one of the things that happens, and this is like, super controversial – especially as it relates to Indigenous groups. So a lot of the times when Native folks take these DNA tests, their ancestry will come up as Haplo Group 1, or Haplo Group 2. And so, Haplo Group 1, Haplo Group 2, are the original peoples that came to the Americas. Ok, and so technically speaking, it’s not a racial group, it’s a migration group. (Mhmm.) Meaning that these people came from Asia, came across the Bering Sea, Iberian Sea, and came into the Americas and spread out.
And so, a lot of researchers are attempting – not researchers, but colonial projects basically, are trying to erase indigeneity (LS: Mhmm) as like, an actual thing, by saying that this is just a migration pattern. These people just came from South Asia, or came from East Asia – erasing sort of the Indigenous experience here.
[7:22]
LS: Which, I think makes sense from the settler perspective – like the US –
DAH: 100%.
LS: The settler-state, so how do we continue to erase the original inhabitants of this land, so we continue to make claim to, like, the United States as a nation state.
DAH: Mhmm.
AD: It’s interesting to think through, kinda what you’ve helped describe, that genes kind of hav- carry – there’s like things that we carry in our DNA.
DAH: Mhmm.
AD: That are passed down, and then that is located to a place, and a group of people. And so, I think this leads to the next question, but I – I have many other kinda like, other questions.
DAH: Yep. Ha ha ha.
AD: But, it kinda brings up race right?
DAH: Yeah.
AD: So, how are you defining it, how are you situating what that means? And your work is really talking about this concept of Racial Becoming.
DAH: Mhmm.
AD: So, can you just maybe start off, what – how do you define race?
[8:11]
DAH: Sure. So, for me, when I think about race and racial categories, like I often am thinking about both a cultural, biological, and historical process. Because in order to understand like, Black American-ness, we can say Black is a race, but Black is so much deeper than that. It’s about this shared, common cultural experience. It’s about these shared historical experiences, and there are things that can’t be explained any other way than being passed through the genetic code. Like, there are just certain commonalities that we all express, that we all experience, and so, I see race as being a combination of this historical, cultural, and biologic process.
And where it gets complicated, is that for a lot of people, you know, we experience certain cultural things, or certain historical moments, that sort of challenge how we understand ourselves and like, our place in sort of like this larger um, global scheme.
LS: Mhmm.
DAH: And where we belong in this larger global scheme.
LS: Mhmm.
[9:11]
AD: And does that connect to this idea of like, Racial Becoming? So like, yeah – how might that connect to that?
DAH: Sure. So, just in a nutshell. So, when I talk about Racial Becoming, I’m using becoming as a process of sort of, gaining new insights and developing a deeper sense of the self and the identity. And so, traditionally, in racial identity literature, we treat race as being a stage model. So, you go from point A to point B to point C, and then when you hit your mid-20s, you hit 25, you’re done, you’re a complete person. Uh, you never grow past that point. Not that you never grow, but your identity is fixed after that point.
LS: Mhmm.
[9:53]
DAH: And so, around the 90s, Bill Cross, who’s like, really critical to sort of the formation of identity literature, he starts to talk about, ok, maybe you recycle but it’s still based on these stages. And so, my contribution is saying that it’s not even a stage model, it’s about the continual growth of individuals. It’s about the decision to enter into specific spaces.
So, taking a Black Studies course in college, or, purposefully finding Black college professors to take classes with. Or, taking a genetic test. Like, you’re purposefully putting yourself in situations and interactions with people in order to learn something new about your history, about your culture, and about yourself. And then incorporate that into a more solid sense of self. If that makes sense.
LS: Mhmm.
DAH: I’m not looking at identity as being stages; I’m looking at identity as being a continual process. You’re always in a state of becoming your next best self.
LS: Mhmm.
DAH: Whatever that looks like.
[10:57]
LS & DAH: Ha ha ha ha ha.
LS: And then so, how does this relate to the genetic ancestry testing?
DAH: Sure, so with the genetic testing in my dissertation and in my research, like, I’ve been thinking about the genetic test as sort of being, this encounter event. So, meaning that this is the choice that people are making in order to learn about their identity. And just as a side bar, um, encounters traditionally have been negative in racial identity literature. Meaning, that we traditionally said that you figure out your racial identity and your place within the world when someone calls you nigger. Or you’re being following in a store. It’s never something that a person decides to do.
LS: Mhmm.
DAH: And so, I’m reframing it and saying that this is a purposeful decision that a person is taking this genetic test in order to learn about their history, about their culture, about you know, things that were stolen from them. It’s like an act of Sankofa. Uh, so you’re going back, you’re looking into the past in order to know your future.
LS: Mhmm.
[12:02]
DAH: And so I see that as being part of that development of the self, the development of new futures – whatever that looks like and feels like for the individual.
AD: So, as I’m listening to you, kind of share, this process that you’re putting forward, um for people to think about, it’s an ongoing kind of, seeking of like, self and place in the world, um. That this, the use of race and race-ing, racialization has also ties to, you know, eugenics movements.
DAH: Mhmm.
AD: And I know that in your work, you complicate kinda ways that identifying one’s race through genes has a particular trajectory.
DAH: Mhmm.
AD: And, you’re posing it slightly differently, can you speak a little bit about how you’re complicating that idea? Like, which comes through the Eugenics movement (DAH: Mhmm) – for listeners who are unaware that, um, particular groups of people who were considered and marked through various ways that they were deemed unworthy (DAH: Mhmm) or uncivilized would be force sterilized.
DAH: Mhmm.
AD: Have forced sterilizations, and those were quote unquote “based off of like, to create a better human race.” Um.
DAH: Mhmm.
AD: Human race? I don’t know..
DAH: Yeah, human race makes sense.
AD & DAH: Ha ha ha ha.
AD: Yeah, how do you complicate that?
DAH: Yeah.
AD: Cause you’re talking about this in a different way?
[13:20]
DAH: I think it’s important to also, like, highlight for listeners and for folks in general, like, the Eugenics movement never really left. Like, we’re still sort of in the midst of it now. Because even with this advent of genetic technology, like, we see these same sort of conversations coming up. Like, how can we determine criminality? How can we find or prevent –
AD: (…) something like that?
DAH: Yes, so the Warrior Gene. So, this is what’s being tapped into right now in order to figure out criminal behavior.
AD: Mhmm.
DAH: Even thinking about diseases, so things like breast cancer. BRCA 1 and BRCA 2 have been sort of at the forefront of, I forget what the exact phrase is, but we call it like Eugenics Selection, or Eugenic Enhancement, meaning that parents who are using IVF technology are purposely selecting against, meaning they’re not selecting the embryos that carry the gene. And so, there’s a way in which we’re still sort of holding on to these eugenic practices and principles, but we’re saying that it’s for the individual to live their best life. When in reality, there’s sort of this undercurrent of like, creating the perfect human race.
AD: Hmm.
DAH: And so there are questions to be raised about sort of, where this precision medicine is going.
And so for me, one of the things that was super important was to work with a company that didn’t necessarily invest in sort of these notions, of like, eugenic enhancement or anything like that. And so I purposely worked with African Ancestry (AD: Ok), which is like the only company – DNA testing company – that doesn’t test for medical anomalies. Like, it’s not giving you a medical report. And they’re the only company that actually destroys your DNA once it’s been sequenced.
[15:03]
AD: Mhmm.
DAH: Almost all other companies keep your sequencing, um, in order to continue to do further tests. Whether it’s medical tests or refining the actual genetic test that they have. Um, but they’re still holding on to your information in that way.
AD: Mhmm.
LS: Ok, there is – so many things!
DAH: So many things! (…)
[15:22]
LS: (…) Back to. But the one thing I wanna talk about now.
DAH: Mhmm.
LS: Is this idea of like, the company being able to keep the DNA – so what rights does the individual have with that DNA? Cause there was one company who was like selling the DNA to the police.
DAH: Mhmm.
LS: So what, just what’s the le – the rights of the person, yeah, how does that all work?
[15:45]
DAH: Yeah, and so this, I mean this kind of takes us a little ways back. So thinking about like, Henrietta Lacks, HeLa, there’s statutes of limitations that are basically put in place where individuals – ah, let’s say, you know, I give my DNA to 23andMe, and after 20 years, they figure out from my genetic code, there’s a cure for insomnia.
LS: Mhmm.
DAH: Or something like that. I have no right to whatever that company develops based on my genetic code. Because I legally gave it away.
AD: Damn.
DAH: I gave it to them. And a lot of the terms and agreements that you end up signing, which, you know, most people don’t read, you just sort of ‘DAH’.
AD: Huge.
DAH: Send it off, no biggie. And within the context of it, a lot of the time it says, you know – it’ll have like, open ended things saying like, you don’t have the right to sue. You’re giving up access to this material. So on and so forth. And so there’s like this expectation of, you know, once you sign it over, even though it’s yours, it’s no longer really yours.
LS: Ahh. I just – what?! I feel like there should be ongoing consent. Like, you gave me this DNA to test (DAH: Mhmm) – for lineage, and now you’re trying to do something else, so I gotta come back to you and get your permission. Like, we have a problem with consent. When we think about just, the whole culture around consent. This is – like, my mind is blown.
[17:14]
DAH: Yeah. And this is one of the things that, when 23andMe first started, just as a, again – sidebar, the founder of 23andMe was actually married to the founder of Google. Um, they separ -.
AD: Whaaaaat.
DAH: Yes. Yes!
(Ha ha ha ha)
LS: Shocked.
DAH: Shock. And so, she, I forget her name, but her whole thing was to create this Google of spit.
(Oh wow!)
DAH: Meaning that you could type in your genetic code like, let’s say 1XBT, and you find out, ok, I have this weird anomaly that I can taste soap when I eat cilantro. I’m just gonna keep using that as an example. Ha.
AD: Ha ha ha.
DAH: And so you find all these other people who also have that anomaly and now we can have conversations about it, and so the idea is that we keep finding commonalities across these parameters. That was sort of the idea, and they also got into a lot of trouble, because originally they were providing information about your medical history without doing like – so, oftentimes the standard is like, if we do a particular genetic test, there’s consulting, there’s counseling that you do with the doctor. But 23andMe is just sort of giving you this information without actually walking you through.
And so, back in like 2013-2014, they had to stop providing the medical information. But basically after a number of lawsuits and you know, court filings, they’re allowed to give that information without necessarily providing counseling.
[18:40]
LS: Yeah. I mean, there’s whole careers.
DAH: Yes.
LS: Of genetic counselors. That –
DAH: Exactly, people do this for a living. Ha ha ha ha.
LS: Ha ha ha.
DAH: And so, they cut out the middleman in some ways. But you lose some of that conversation, like, you know. I’m a carrier for Sickle Cell and it’s like, if I found that out through a genetic test, you know, a genetic ancestry test, it doesn’t really tell me. Like, alright – the next steps.
AD: Right.
DAH: Like, ok cool, I’m a carrier, but what happens when X, Y, and Z happens.
LS: Mhmm.
DAH: You know.
LS: Yeah.
DAH: So there’s something missing in that process.
AD: So, when you’re talking about this process that you, in your research that you had this thing called Encounter event, so where, genetic ancestry testing was used as, in a very particular way. As a way of racial becoming. Was this, kinda the conversation that we’re having, also part of like, the event itself or the afterwards?
DAH: Mhmm.
AD: Can you tell us a little bit more about what that meant?
[19:34]
DAH: Sure. And so, with the project itself, so, I was working specifically with this arts and education program called The Continuum Project. And so, they’re based in Brooklyn and Washington D.C., and so they give people the genetic ancestry test as well as working with these adults to create theater pieces. Traditionally, it’s 9 weeks, they did it in 3 weeks, it was all adults 18-65, and they’re just talking about their experiences with race, with identity, with politics. Um, how they raise their kids, the things that they heard when they were children. So, it becomes a much more – how do I put this? It’s a much more nuanced process. We’re not just taking the test and saying alright, I found out I’m from Ghana, whatever whatever. We’re like building a space to really think about the next steps. Like, alright you’ve found this out, so what happens next? How do you connect that to your relationship with your wife, your partners, your children? What goes on next?
[20:40]
AD: Cool.
DAH: Yeah.
AD: Yeah, that’s really interesting and like, I’m sure that you talk about this more in depth, kinda like what that meant, how that unfolded with people. I don’t know if we wanna, if we wanna go to the next question or so.
LS: I –
AD: Or did you have a follow up?
LS: I don’t have a follow up. Well, that’s a lie, I have a follow up (DAH: Ha ha ha ha) to something that you said mad earlier.
DAH: Sure, ha ha ha.
LS: This is, my processing time.
DAH: Yeah, no, go for it.
LS: Um, so we talked about like, identity and things in psychology usually being treated as stage models. So, it’s this very linear process. And I feel, yes, so. I’m just thinking about how – I mean what colonialism did to knowledge production and how we think things should happen. So, it’s very linear and you saying like, nah, this is not linear, it’s a continual process. So back to like, what your contributions are, also what does that mean, like your work, for –
AD: Thinking of change? And human change.
LS: Can you – yes.
DAH: Yeah.
LS: Someone, like (…) pulled the words out of my brain.
AD: I, I think.
DAH: Y’all two work together so well.
(Ha ha ha ha)
LS: You’re essentially pushing back against this model of like, an institution that we’re all in – which is colleges and universities.
[21:51]
DAH: Yeah, and I think part of that is just saying, like. Ok, it’s cool to do this linear thing but like, time for African, Indigenous, Hispanic peoples is not linear. We experience time across multiple avenues. Like, we experience, you know like, when I’m talking with my grandma, like, I can see my great grandma’s face in her face.
LS: Mhmm.
DAH: And so, it’s not a conversation between two generations. It’s a conversation between three, four generations. And to ignore the fact that we are peoples who are connected to ancestral Indigenous roots would be to erase everything that makes us who we are.
LS: Mhmm.
DAH: And so, I think by challenging and saying these linear models don’t make sense, we have to break those things apart. Like, returns us back to like, who we are as a people. And it doesn’t put us in these really constraining, really Eurocentric boxes. Like, it doesn’t work for how we’re thinking about our futures, we’re thinking about our pasts, we’re thinking about our present – oftentimes, in like, the same breath.
And so, to keep us in these boxes only furthers – further like, pushes us away from who we truly are at our core. And in our true natures. If that makes sense.
[23:04]
LS: Mhmm. Thank you.
AD: Man. So, now I’m trying to process this.
DAH: Ha ha ha ha.
AD: But maybe we can kind of move to the next piece, but, you were talking about how ancestry testing. Like, the way that different companies kind of, either privatize those codes or the afterlife of those codes themselves. But how do you see, um, ancestry testing as connected to different relationships to land. So, part of it, you’ve talked about with people and to a country, and that’s part of this.
DAH: Mhmm.
AD: And so, what is the connection between ancestry testing to land rights, or belonging to a state, or even claiming rights to property? Whether that’s private property or some other form of it?
[23:47]
DAH: Yeah. And this is where it gets like, I mean it’s all complicated and layered. But this is where the complexity, sort of like, it really starts to hit closer to home for folks. Because one of the issues that comes up, in. For certain Indigenous groups, so we’re gonna use the Seminoles in Florida and Oklahoma as sort of, the example. They have a strong belief that indigeneity isn’t just about who you’re biologically related to. It’s about the people who are part of your community, the people who are supporting you.
LS: Your play cousins.
DAH: Yeah. Your play cousins, ha ha ha ha.
LS: Ha ha ha ha.
DAH: Ha ha, your play cousins are just as important as your real cousins. And so, what ends up happening is that in like, the 90s, this is background – the Seminoles in Oklahoma and Florida owned slaves. They owned Black people as slaves; they bought and sold and traded with white slaveowners. So they were involved in this process. And part of what ends up happening is that, eventually, some of these formerly enslaved folks, actually become leaders within the Seminole Nation. They negotiate out a deal to become an independent nation separate from the Cree, the Creek Nations I should say. They also are heavily involved in sort of, maintaining Seminole culture. And so, we get to the 1990s, and the United States is giving like $56 million dollars in land rights and money to the Seminole Nation as sort of, a reparations type deal. The language around it is a little murky, but it’s supposed to be money back.
And so, almost immediately, Indigenous Seminole folks say well these Black Seminoles are not part of us. They’re not part of our community. Um, they don’t get the right to claim this land, they are excluded.
And so, one of the things that ends up happening is that they use this thing called the Dawes Rolls. D-A-W-E-S. Which is basically a list of all of the people who are Seminole, Creek, etc, etc. If you cannot trace your ancestry to a person who’s listed on that Roll, you cannot be included as part of receiving this money or this land.
[26:11]
AD: It’s like the Census for Indigenous folks in the 18 ?
DAH: 1800s, it was like 1898? It was late, something like that.
LS: Mhmm.
DAH: And so, for a lot of Black Seminole folks, they couldn’t do that tracing because not all of their names were listed. Some of them were still considered to be property. And so it just added this extra layer. You know, your whole life, you’ve lived this life of both being Black and Indigenous on, you know, stolen land, and yet. I can’t get access to the things that would make, in quotes, “me legitimate.” Or, add me into this collective.
[26:46]
What ends up happening, essentially, they do a genetic test and, you know, they’re kicked out, then they’re brought back in, then they’re kicked out again. And eventually, now as of 2019, Black Seminole folks are considered to be part of the Seminole Creek Nation. The other layer that’s also happening is that there have been stories, you know both colloquially, and reported that white folks who list themselves as Seminole have been given access to those very lands and those monies, that were denied to Black Seminole folks. And so there’s this undercurrent of anti-Blackness (LS: Mhmm) that’s also happening within these processes. So, it’s complicated, you know. Epseically when we’re thinking about you know, like, American context. And that’s not to say that other nations are doing the same process, but this is one of those examples of sort of like, the cultural histories aren’t necessarily matching up with sort of, what is actually happening with folks, and to folks when it comes to these land rights. Again, not perfect, much more complicated. But, this is some of what’s going on.
[27:51]
LS: Mhmm.
AD: Yeah, I mean, I think what’s interesting about this account that you’re talking about is like – this is in the context of the United States.
DAH: Mhmm.
AD: Which, many people have called lots of different things but if we’re using the term settler-colonial project.
DAH: Mhmm.
AD: So that it’s land that’s already been occupied, prior to an invasion. (DAH: Mhmm) A European invasion, and then made to be a part of a settler-expansionist, continually expansionist project where you’re remaking who belongs to the land, rather who the land belongs to. And so like, this case that you brought up in the 90s is happening under US law. Right.
DAH: Yep.
AD: So it’s within the rubric that’s already kinda been a settler project.
DAH: Mhmm.
AD: And the other thing that really comes to mind is like, we’re talking about where people – when I think about belonging or living, it’s kind of like, where you want to make a home.
DAH: Mhmm.
AD: And then there’s also this, another layer of like private property.
DAH: Yeah.
AD: As a way of like, accumulating wealth and so, there’s sometimes like a, cohesion with that when you’re like creation, or building of wealth through owning land. But also, sometimes it’s like the oppositional thing of like, well if some people own land then not everybody can be there. Or, who decides who can be there and so there’s – I agree.
DAH: Yeah.
AD: I think it’s a complicated thing. Once again, we’re talking about this in the context of the United States.
DAH: Yeah.
AD: So the United States has a very particular violent history.
LS: Very violent history, especially like, being a settler-state. And so, I never know where the ‘s’ goes, it is on Dawe, or is it on Roll?
DAH: Dawes Roll?
LS: Dawes Roll?
DAH: I think it goes on Dawes, then yeah. Ha ha ha.
AD: Yeah, I think so too.
LS: And what year was that? 18s?
DAH: It’s like the late 1800s. I can’t remember the exact date off the top of my head.
LS: And so, I’m even thinking at the time, as an Indigenous Seminole, who even got to be on that list?
DAH: Yeah.
LS: And who got excluded? And the US government saying that – using this, when this then circles back around. How then, the Indigenous folks are being forced to reinforce something that they may not even agree with.
[29:57]
DAH: Exactly.
LS: And just, just the insidious ways that settler colonialism and white supremacy works in both these communities.
DAH: Mhmm, like you said, it becomes insidious and so like, even as we’re trying to combat, you know, the settler colonial state. There are still these things that have been embedded and ingrained and validated in us as a peoples in ways that just, goes counter to sort of what liberation could potentially look like in these processes as well.
[30:25]
LS: Mhmm.
AD: Yeah.
LS: Ok, so back to the land thing.
DAH: Ha ha, yeah no.
LS: We didn’t leave that, I guess we’re still there. So when, when folks that were participating in your dissertation project, when they found out that like ok, this country in West Africa, this country – what did that mean to them? You know, cause sometimes it’s like, you know, I don’t know, they’re all like, this is home? Or this is like, I just now have closure? Or what was that? [30:57]
DAH: It was different for different folks. Like, I think for everybody, it was like closure. It was a definitive, like, these places, I am Mende of Sierra Leone, I am Twi from Ghana, I am X, Y, and Z from X, Y, and Z place. It helped to answer a question that couldn’t have been answered any other way.
LS: Mhmm.
DAH: Um, you know, we, in theory you know, everyone says ‘oh you could do genealogy’ – but then, the nature of the slave trade makes it almost impossible to figure out where you’re from.
LS: Mhmm.
DAH: And so, it answers those questions for people. And some folks, it is clear. You know, some people in that group, Sierra Leone is home.
LS: Mhmm.
DAH: Like, they’re a few folks who’ve gone back multiple times. They’re in the process of like, buying property, trying to get citizenship, so on and so forth. And then for others, it’s like, I don’t know. Like, I can say this answers a question for sure. But I don’t know if that means that I’m gonna start seeking out, you know, dual citizenship. I don’t know if that means like, do I wanna visit or do I, you know…what the next step is. It’s just a question mark around it.
[32:05]
LS: Mhmm. So you’re giving us examples of how DNA testing, like people use DNA testing to sort of get back something that was taken from them.
DAH: Mhmm.
LS: But then, how’s DNA testing also being like weaponized against these very same communities that are using it in a more positive way? DAH: Mhmm. A lot of it is happening in relationship to criminal justice. Because this is where DNA testing really found it’s first, sort of, life. You know, like this is where –
AD: Support.
DAH: Yeah. Support. Is like, with criminal justice, and sort of, you know, figuring out and solving unsolved crimes and things like that. And so, right now, we all know, you know, there’s CODIS, um, I can’t remember exactly how the acronym breaks down, but basically it’s like this big database of DNA. Of, collected from crime scenes. Uh, that is accessible to most police departments and so you can test and analyze DNA across, you k now, the entire United States to figure out if there’s a serial whatever.
But at the same time, you know, they’re backlogs of rape kits,
(Agh.)
DAH: Yeah. And we can’t always test against. There are complications, ha. Um, so, one of the things that I will say in relationship to this is that, one of the big questions that has been coming up is sort of this push to find a quote unquote “criminality gene”, which we kind of like started-
AD: Touched on a little.
DAH: Touching on at the beginning, but there’s this gene called the Warrior Gene, MAO-A.
[33:43]
LS: Say that again.
DAH: MAO-A. It’s like monoamine something something something. For someone who’s heavily involved in science, I cannot pronounce everything.
(All laughing.)
DAH: But, it’s basically sort of like, this um, this gene that gets turned on. And so when it gets turned on, it basically reduces your inhibition. Um, you question authority more. It’s like connected to like, antisocial personality disorder.
LS: Mhmm.
DAH: And so, what’s happening right now is that a lot of researchers are looking for this particular genetic anomaly, and trying to behaviorally correct people who have this genetic anomaly. And typically, the communities that they’re targeting are predominantly Black, predominantly Hispanic. So on and so forth. Now, the thing to remember is that when they first identified this gene, they were working mostly in prisons in New Zealand and Australia.
(Oh!)
DAH: And if you know anything about sort of, Anti-Blackness globally, most of these locations are filled with predominantly people of color.
LS: Mhmm.
DAH: Again, it’s tying criminal behavior to criminality. Or, to the genetic code I should say.
LS: Yeah.
DAH: And so, right now, the other thing to remember too is that, these behaviors of like, questioning authority, of being aggressive, can also be connected to a lack of REM sleep. So, if you’re not sleeping deep enough, you can also express these anomalies, or these incongruencies, I should say.
And so, it becomes this conversation about, you know. Less so about like, the trauma that people are experiencing that leads to these behaviors and moreso about fixing this genetic code. And so, we’re ignoring sort of the context that people are growing up in, in order to fix a quote unquote “issue”.
[35:41]
AD: Yeah. That’s – sounds crazy, and also, not out of the realm of like, this kind of history where behaviors are seen as like, uh, like you just said. They’re a part of like, some thing to remove of a person.
DAH: Mhmm.
AD: You can see that in education systems. You can see that manifesting a lot of different places – playing out a lot of different places. As opposed to questioning the conditions and history of the people.
DAH: Yeah.
AD: It’s like, you know, that’s – yeah.
LS: And the conditions of history of the gene. So what is the history of this gene? Like, who – like what did it do for communities or cultures in different places in different times?
[36:22]
DAH: Mhmm. And this is one of the things like – I can’t remember what year, but there was a year where this book came out called the Warrior Gene. And the researcher was basically saying that, historically, it made sense to have these particular conditions. So like, thinking about like, questioning authority, thinking about sort of, quickness to react, things like that. It was necessary for survival. However, it doesn’t translate into, you know, our Westernized world and into the 21st century because those things that we should be afraid of, or we should be questioning, are quote unquote, natural. They’re part of our environment now, so we shouldn’t be afraid or questioning things in front of us.
LS: Mhmm.
AD: That’s according to the author?
DAH: That’s according to the author.
AD: Ok.
DAH: And so he, again, super problematic, super racist, um, he really says that you can find the MAO-A gene mostly in like, sub-Saharan African populations. Um.
AD: Shocker.
DAH: Shocker!
(Ha ha ha.)
DAH: Shocker. And so, again, it becomes tied to Black and Hispanic bodies, from two different angles. From, Australia and New Zealand studies on prison, and then also from this researcher’s studies on the Warrior Gene broadly.
[37:39]
AD: This is, kinda related to this vein, and I don’t know if I’m pulling away from maybe a follow up question you have, Toya, but I’m thinking of like – how testing companies who collect these codes. Right, so they’re like making these assertions from a bunch of different things, they’re collecting the data. How is that intersecting with like, particular like, US government interests? Let’s just say.
DAH: Mhmm.
AD: Or, even like, the privatizing of like, owning the codes? Um, you know, I think you mentioned earlier to me in a different conversation about what’s happening at the border right now.
DAH: Mhmm.
AD: So, I guess part of my question is how – what is the connection between ancestry testing and different government interests? DAH: Mhmm.
AD: In terms of surveillance. Also like, I’ve been under the understanding that like, in order to make any like claim to placing people, you have to have a lot of information. Like, it’s based off of people giving. Or, people having taken, their samples, to then test to then have like a body, a large enough body of knowledge. Or body of like, codes to then say, ok, I can now make that assertion.
DAH: Mhmm.
AD: So anyways, I don’t know if you – yeah, what is your take on?
DAH: Yeah. And, this is one of the things that’s – it’s layered. Because – so, companies like 23andMe, and Ancestry. Um, those are like the two big companies that everyone uses. They suffer from a lack of specificity for African descended folks. Because most of the people who are accessing Ancestry and 23andMe are white. And so, one of the things that they’ve done over the last five years is do this huge like, online push to get more Black folks to take the test. Uh, in order to refine their databases.
And so, what it ends up doing is creating sort of this, it ends up creating sort of like a bigger pool of you know, Black data, whatever that looks like that’s continually being tested. Now, 23andMe, when things first started happening at the border, in terms of family separations, child separations, 23andMe came forward and said ‘hey, we’re willing to do the DNA test and you know, make sure we can match people back to their kids. And –
[40:02]
AD: Consensually?
DAH: Yeah. So, this is the part where it became a political issue. I mean, it’s already political in and of itself. But, they could not promise that they would not sell the data to the government, later in the future.
AD: Wow.
LS: I’m sorry, what?! How could you not – how can’t you promise that? Like, that’s just a simple – ok, we won’t. Yes.
DAH: Yes. This is one of the catches in a lot of their information. They protect – they make it very clear, we will protect your data to the best of our capabilities. However, if the right, you know, subpoenas come through, if there are enough pressures, we may potentially – may potentially, maybe, maybe not, give your data to the FBI, to CSI – not CSI… CIA!
(All laughing.)
[40:55]
DAH: But, potentially like give your data to this government agency if they’re asking for it.
LS: Ok wait.
DAH: Mhmm.
LS: Sorry, ok so what happened with those.
DAH: No, go for it.
LS: Ok wait – oh my goodness. DAH: Ha ha ha.
LS: With those two people in Cali (DAH: Mhmm) with, was it the iPhone, someone in the government was like, you gotta unlock this phone. And they was like ‘nah, we not gon’ do it.’ So, it’s not like you can’t resist whatever pressures come your way. What am I – what is that story?
It’s not like you can’t resist the pressures. Did they get subpoenaed? I don’t know if they got subpoenaed, they got…?
[41:29]
DAH: I’m not entirely sure about that instance.
LS: Ok. Listener’s -
DAH: Someone google that.
LS: Someone google that and let us know. Let us know.
DAH: Yeah. So, 23andMe was trying to be altruistic, but of course they ended up not doing it because again, they could not make that guarantee. Blah-de-blah-de-blah.
LS: Or like, [changes tone of voice] if this member of our board is also friends with the FBI, then (…)
DAH: Right.
(Laughing)
LS: [In same different voice tone] We’re just gonna have to give it over guys.
DAH: We’re just gonna have to give it over. So yeah, so they’re – they did whatever. And so, right now, as of October 10 [2019]. I shouldn’t say as of October 10, back in like June or July [of 2019], the US government quietly said that ICE and um, Border Protection. So, I forgot the full title, would basically start DNA testing people who are entering at the border.
LS: Jesus!
AD: Anyone? Everyone? Or particular people?
LS: Fuck!
DAH: So, people who are held in detention.
AD: Uh huh.
DAH: So, if you’re being held in ICE detention facility, you’re being held by Border Control, Patrol.. whatever.
AD: It’s Control.
DAH: Yeah, Border Control. You will be subject to DNA test.
[42:34]
Trump, and his cronies, that person in the White House and his cronies, are saying that this is being done in order to prove that these people are familial relatives. They are related to each other, it’s not just MS13, grabbing kids and trying to enter into the US. This is meant to prove that these people are part of a family.
LS: Ha ha ha ha.
DAH: So.
AD: This is like, a larger dragnet.
LS: Ha ha ha!
DAH: It is!
AD: (…) DAH: It’s also a larger dragnet and I –
(Laughing)
DAH: Liiisten, and so, that’s one layer. And then the second layer is that, the ICE, and both Border Control are saying that, technically speaking, legally they are obligated to DNA test everyone who is in federal protection. So, there is a law that was signed in 2005 that said that every person who is in federal detention must be DNA tested in order to check it against this larger system, which we talked about, CODIS.
LS: Oh my god.
DAH: So, if we’re talking about – so let’s say you get caught up here in New York for doing something, we’re serving federal time. They can legally take our DNA and test it against all the other DNA across, you know, the United States to figure out if we’re involved in other crimes.
LS: Oh god.
[43:49]
DAH: Ha ha ha ha. Oh god, yes. That’s exactly what’s happening.
LS: That…ok. I – I’m like, I don’t even have words because the USA is so fucked up on so many levels.
DAH: So many levels. And just to, tie that up, (rolls tongue) – so 2005, it’s actually ended under Obama for a bit. Obama stops doing the testing at the border, saying that you know, it, really puts these undocumented folks at risk and we have to protect them, etc etc. And now the administration that’s currently in power is saying, oh no, we have to redo this. Like, this is our obligation, we have to make sure that these people aren’t committing multiple crimes.
But in reality, it’s creating a genetic database of immigrants. And, Canada is doing it. We are just following in Canada’s footsteps.
LS: Oh Canada.
AD: Canada did it first? DAH: I don’t know if it was the first, but it is the model that is being replicated.
LS: Interesting.
DAH: Um, and so the idea is that if we test it against CODIS and people are implicated, let’s say your half brother committed a crime, or your brother committed a crime, they could potentially say – well, you’re related to somebody who committed something. Like, do we really want you –
AD: You could be a danger to society.
DAH: You could be a danger to society. Do we really want you in this nation? Etc. etc.
LS: Yeah. I – listen.
AD & DAH: Ha ha ha ha.
LS: It all – I mean, so many things, one, it goes back to the notion that we were talking about, about family.
DAH: Mhmm.
LS: And for…family is different for different communities.
DAH: Yep.
LS: Than like, with the settler state says is a family. So DNA testing, whether it shows that they are biologically related, doesn’t mean that they’re not family.
DAH: Exactly.
LS: If they’re not biologically related, the next logical conclusion isn’t that they’re MS13 or in a gang. Which is –
DAH: Mhmm. Or being trafficked. Like, that’s –
LS: I don’t know – white logic.
DAH: Right. Ha ha ha.
AD: Or if you’re adopted. Like, some folks were adopted that are then taken from...
LS: Yeah.
AD: Taken from different family situations.
LS: Yeah, and then the idea of what – what is the crime that really debilitates or destabilizes a community or society? And so they’re focusing on – I don’t even know what you call these crimes… Violent crimes? DAH: Yeah.
LS: I don’t know. But then we’re thinking about, like, the crime that actually creates the conditions that allows the type of crimes that we focus on to exist.
DAH: Mhmm.
LS: We don’t really put the –
AD: Like invasion?
(Ha ha ha ha)
LS: Yes. Yes. Like invasion, but then thinking about like finance and all the stuff that happens on Wall Street that –
AD: Create those conditions.
LS: Yes.
DAH: Yeah. Yeah.
LS: Capitalism, like. Yeah. So. I don’t know. I don’t got no answer. I don’t know if I have a question, I just have, just confusion at the state of things.
AD: Yeah, yeah.
[46:38]
DAH: The way in which we’re focusing in on these things that are happening, it’s so hyper-focused on the individual and the individual level variables, for lack of a better word, and not necessarily taking into account the sort of larger global historical context. Like, we’re ignoring the fact that everything that’s happening, you know in Central America, in Mexico, is funded by US involvement, in those locations. And so, we’re just adding to these layers and complications of people being forced out. Of state violence. Of gang violence. Of whatever.
LS: Mhmm.
DAH: Like, we are part of this process and there’s a – we’re purposely trying to divorce ourselves from that when we are like –
AD: Complicit.
DAH: We are knee deep in it. Like, we’re in it. Like.
LS: Mhmm.
DAH: Yeah.
AD: So, your work, I feel like is really wanting to disrupt that and kinda take a different way of engaging with this phenomena of ancestry testing. What would you say for folks who are kinda curious? They wanna engage in kind of like, what’s my history? What do I make sense of, in light of these really like, big things?
DAH: Yeah.
AD: (…) In the same stream.
DAH: Yeah, so. I mean, I, ha, my best advice, don’t use any companies that you find on Groupon. Ha ha ha.
[47:59]
LS: Don’t Groupon it.
DAH: Don’t Groupon it. The only reason why I say that is because a lot of the companies that are available on Groupon – yes, they are significantly cheaper than Ancestry, 23andMe, African Ancestry, but the reason why they’re so cheap is because their policies around protecting your data are a lot less, uh, strict. So 23andMe is already kind of like, fast and loose, but these smaller companies are –
(All laughing)
DAH: Woopsy daisy! Ha ha. So, they’re already a little questionable but these smaller companies are much more questionable. Meaning, that with minimal pressure, they will give your DNA to the police, to the FBI, uh, if it’s requested based on certain, you know, what boxes they’re looking for. So, the Golden State Killer in California was caught in part because of this third party DNA company. DNA testing company. Which, you know, great we solved this crime, but it also raises these other questions of like –
AD: What else is possible with that technology?
DAH: Exactly. What else becomes possible? And so, I think right now, my suggestion is like, go Black owned. Go with African Ancestry. It’s the most expensive test, but it’s the only one that’s guaranteed to delete your information. Like, they can’t go back and check. If I were to go to them today, like, can you retest? Like, well you can buy another test but we don’t have your information.
LS: Oh. Hmm.
DAH: They make it a point because they are hyperaware of Black Americans’ experiences with the medical system. And with, you know, science in general. And so, that is part of their core, we’re going to get rid of it as quickly as possible in order to protect folks.
[49:46]
LS: Mhmm. I think it’s hilarious that you called 23andMe fast and loose. Ha ha ha ha.
DAH: Ha ha ha ha.
AD: Ha ha ha ha.
LS: I feel like that’s what my Aunt Gladys would call me, if she knew the life I was living.
DAH: Right. Ha ha ha ha.
(Everyone laughing.)
DAH: Fast and loose! Ha ha ha ha.
LS: You need Jesus! Ha ha ha ha.
DAH: Oh God.
[50:12]
LS: Delete that.
DAH: Delete, delete, delete.
(All laughing.)
LS: Oh, ok. Whew. One more, and just the conversation around reparations.
DAH: Sure.
LS: Cause DNA.
DAH: Yep, yeah.
LS: DNA came up in that conversation that was happening not too long ago.
DAH: Mhmm. And so, this is one of those –
LS: Ok, wait, also say, ok. I was thinking –
DAH: Ha ha ha.
LS: Thinking the other day about like, 40 acres and a mule.
DAH: Uh huh.
LS: And I was like what is one mule gon’ do with 40 acres?
DAH: Yep.
LS: Don’t you need – like how many mules do you need for 40 acres? DAH: Ha ha ha ha.
AD: Can you just, um, help clarify for listeners who might not know what you’re talking about? [50:51]
LS: 40 acres and a mule, I don’t, I – listen. Don’t take my Black Card. I don’t really know the right history of where 40 acres and a mule came from, I just know that we was promised it by – I don’t know who was actually promised it, but we were supposed to get 40 acres and a mule from somebody at some point in time.
DAH: So, yeah. Lincoln’s, before –
LS: Really?! Lincoln.
DAH: Yeah, before he was assassinated, one of his central sort of things that he had signed was like, oh we’ll give every enslaved person who’s now free 40 acres and a mule in order to establish a life for themselves.
LS: Ha ha ha. I don’t mean to laugh, but they was like ‘one mule is to many!’ Ha ha ha. (…)
DAH: Right, ha ha ha.
(Laughing)
LS: Alright, seriously, ok. Listeners, someone else also, google this. How many mules do you actually need for 40 acres?
DAH: Yeah. That’s actually a great question.
LS: They’re about to work that mule to death.
DAH: They are. They are. Um, and so yeah, once he dies, Johnson – is it Johnson? Yes, Johnson or Grant. I can’t remember, takes over and basically, that policy is killed. You know, like any sort of good, potentially good policy is killed in Congress.
[51:59]
DAH: Ha, so, maybe not the best. Trying to rephrase. That was the initial promise. Yeah.
LS: Ok, well, we still waiting.
DAH: We still waiting.
(All laughing.)
AD: 40 acres and a mule.
LS: So, ok, sorry but the current talk? DAH: Ok, so, the current conversation right now, back in like June, July, around Juneteenth. So –
AD: 2019.
DAH: 2019. Couple things to remember. 1619 is the 400th anniversary of the first enslaved Africans touching down in the United States. Um, so they touched American soil in August. August 20th, August 21st, something like that, of 1619.
AD: In Jamestown? Was that in Jamestown?
DAH: In Jamestown.
AD: Ok.
DAH: So there were about 20 enslaved Africans. They were basically traded from this ship that was actually sailing elsewhere with the colonists who were there for supplies. And that ship continued someplace else. I don’t remember exactly where but it traveled elsewhere. And so this year has been sort of this seminal, sort of point in thinking about what reparations would look like, the case for reparations, and so, back in June. Ta-Nehisi Coates, Danny – (AD: Glover) yes, Danny Glover, ha ha. I was about to say Donald Glover, yes, Danny Glover. And a couple other folks were presenting, you know, reasoning why reparations is necessary. Ta-Nehisi Coates’ whole perspective and others like him, is like, we don’t have to go back to the slave trade – (Hmm?) even though chattel slavery. Yes. Even though chattel slavery, like is traumatic and destroys generations through it’s process. We actually only need to look back to the GI Bill in the 1940s. That really sets up the wealth gap between Black and white folks.
And now, others prior to this point in the early 90s, mid – throughout the 90s, are really working towards this idea of reparations is suing companies like AETNA, like Chase, like oh, I forgot – Bank of America, I wanna say.
[54:03]
AD: So, banks and health insurance?
DAH: Banks and health insurance companies, who basically had insured slave ships.
LS: Mhmm.
DAH: And so the idea is that by suing these companies, these companies got their wealth off of these insurance deals to protect cargo. Ok, actual human cargo. And so by suing these companies, we’re actually getting back the wealth that we deserve as people. And so, back in the 90s, I’m forgetting this woman’s name off the top of my head, but it’ll come back to me. She had sued these companies. Her and about 40 other people got together, filed a class action lawsuit, and basically, the court overturned it saying you can’t prove –
AD: Deadria?
DAH: Yes! Deadria Farmer-Paellmann. Uh, she’s a lawyer um based in New York and Boston. And so, the court basically overturns it and says, this isn’t enough, like you need to prove that you are descended from somebody on the slave ship. On one of the slave ships that’s ensured by the company.
LS: Uh, sir, do you not look at me and see?
DAH: Ha ha ha ha.
(Laughing.) (…)
LS: Do you not see this hair growing on my head? Do you not see this skin?
(All laughing)
DAH: Right.
LS: My hair’s defying gravity right now, can your hair do this? DAH: Right. Exactly.
LS: Ha ha.
DAH: Ha ha. So, it basically ends up being, because of the nature again, of the slave trade. Things aren’t documented, names aren’t kept up, you know, names are changed as you’re sold from property to property.
LS: Mhmm.
DAH: And so, it’s not like, when they’re putting you on the cargo ship, they’re checking who you are. There’s a lack of actual paper, and you know, actual paper trail um that could happen. And so, Deadria decides to take a genetic test. And she figures out that she is descended from the Mende of Sierra Leone. And she comes back and she re-sues and says, look, I have proven I am from X,Y, and Z place. And basically, the federal court says, you need to prove a genealogy of capital. Meaning, you have to prove that you are entitled to this money by connecting directly to somebody who would’ve been on that ship.
[56:12]
Or one of the ships that was insured. Again, and so, this is the same process sort of reiterating itself. Even though we’re using this genetic technology to connect back, it’s not enough. And, the other layer that also comes up is that – well, how do you know that someone didn’t just come to the United States, like, midway into your ancestry who was from Sierra Leone? You can’t track it, you can’t prove it. For all we know, someone – some intrepid sailor came to the United States from Sierra Leone, descend – you know, settled here, lived a good life. Ha ha.
[56:47]
LS: Ha ha. But y’all still owe him too.
DAH: Right. Exactly.
LS: Ha ha ha ha.
DAH: Or how do you know? You know, your folks didn’t come through the Caribbean or – and so these questions –
AD: Once again, ha ha.
LS: Once again.
DAH: Exactly. Once again, empire. And so, it just, it makes it impossible to sort of mount a – every time you hit the bar, the bar gets moved further.
LS: Right.
DAH: And so it makes it more difficult to create sort of a sustained reparations practice. And the other-
AD: Through the legal system. DAH: Through the legal system. And so, the other thing to also consider is, when we’re thinking about the reparations process. Who will get the money? Ok, if there’s – let’s say, somehow someway, everyone’s like ‘yep! Every Black person’s gonna get $20,000.’ Now, who are we constituting as Black? Who gets to get access to this money? Does my friend who’s two generations removed from Nigeria? Are they gonna get reparations? Is someone who’s a first generation from Jamaica going to get reparations? How will we –
LS: Yes and yes.
DAH: Yes and yes.
LS: I think it’s funny how the state can’t tell, it’s like you’re Black, you’re Black. But now all of a sudden, y’all trying to give us money now we gotta try to figure out what type of Black you are. You did not care what type of Black we are.
DAH: Exactly. Exactly, they have no interest. But now, this is where those questions are gonna be brought up in order to reduce the amount of money that they could potentially give to people.
This is the thing that’s important to remember, that like American slavery was different from slavery in the Caribbean, but a lot of the practices that happened in the Caribbean started in America.
LS: Right.
[58:23]
DAH: And so we are like, again, we are setting the standard for like, pardon my language, fucked-up-ed ness. And it’s just being passed generationally.
LS: Mhmm.
DAH: And so the things that, you know, these standards that we’re trying to create, just like, we’re ignoring our historical processes.
LS: Right.
DAH: And like, our involvement in these things. If that makes sense.
LS: Right, and I think to also go back to the Dawes Roll, like, we have an example of what not to do. And so, how do we, when this conversation does come up, not try to be like –
AD: Use the same tools?
LS: Use the same tools, yeah. So, like yeah, no. Everybody gets it.
DAH: Yeah.
LS: You Black, you in the United States, you get this money.
DAH: Exactly. Like, we’re all, we all going through it. And so, this is again, right now, this conversation about reparations, like everything else, has taken a back seat. Because we’re so, we’re caught up with impeachment, we’re caught up with –
AD: Elections.
DAH: Elections. You know, these more critical – not that they’re more critical, but they are critical conversations about like, you know, the state of the nation and how we move forward for people of color. They’re not happening at the same rate as they need to be happening. At least in this context. And so, we’ll see what’ll happen. Whoever ends up in the white house, whoever that is. If they’re committed to this project and committed to actually doing this process. Um, what that’s going to look like.
My faith right now is like, it’s gonna be some, some not so great things that get reified in this process.
LS: Yeah.
[59:53]
AD: It’s interesting that you brought up, you know how, some of the practices that were happening in the United States, or American plantations, were connected or informed those in the plantations in the Caribbean. But thinking of like, we’re talking about the context of the United States, but its also a larger globally expansive, kind of, implications and project?
DAH: Mhmm.
LS: Yeah.
AD: So, the colonial – all these different colonial empires that were about extraction in various means.
LS: Yeah.
AD: Whether using enslavement, or whether it was like creating indentured kind of like, pockets and different systems – is a global thing.
DAH: Mhmm.
AD: And so, for me I’m like, ok, once you start unraveling this one piece, this is not just within the borders of what’s now considered the United States, but – or you know, even Turtle Island, the larger Americas, but this is kind of like a question that’ll have to be kind of connected globally.
DAH: Yes.
LS: Mhmm.
[1:00:53]
AD: I don’t – whatever, I don’t know if this is a thing to be like, have an answer to, but I think it’s just – it’s big.
DAH: It’s big. It’s big.
AD: And then we have to kind of like, I don’t know, think about what are we gonna do? How are we gonna engage all the different diverse histories that’s gonna unroll? It’s kinda like when, that’s what I was thinking about, in doing an ancestry testing, like, you have a question and then all these other things come out of the woodwork with that.
DAH: Yeah.
AD: And that’s kinda true, I feel like, in thinking of reparations. All these other kind of like, interconnected things are also gonna have to be a part of that process.
DAH: Yeah.
LS: Yeah. And we go back to the beginning. I know to like, see the generation – the wealth, you only have to go back to the GI bill, but we’re starting at the beginning. Ha.
DAH: Yeah.
[1:01:40]
DAH: I mean, we have to.
LS: We’re starting at the beginning and it’s not just wealth, it’s so much – I think when we only focus on – pay me.
DAH: Yeah.
(Laughing)
LS: (…) Please, thank you. But also, what are all these when we think about reparations, how do we expand it so it’s wealth and money and also all these other things?
AD: Autonomy.
DAH: Yeah.
AD: Sovereignty.
DAH: And sovereignty. All of those layers.
AD: Mhmm.
DAH: Because, and I’ll add this, like, a lot of the conversations around reparations are really centered around these sort of like, middle class perspectives. So, is it giving a one time $20,000 grant? Is it –
LS: $20,000?!
DAH: This is the number they’re saying –
LS: Who said that? Who threw that number out there?
DAH: We ain’t gonna name names, but…
(Ha ha ha ha)
DAH: But, you know, is it that or ?
LS: You’re fired.
DAH: Whoever you are.
LS: $20,000 ain’t nothing.
DAH: It’s nothing. And this is you know, if it’s like, a billion dollars and we divide it by all Black Americans in the United States, this is what the number would end up being in theory. Um, probably more when you account for inflation, but that’s nothing. Ha. I can’t go into all that stuff, but, there’s also conversations like, oh is it just free college education for every Black person. Like, or free home loans? Or like, low interest home loans? And it’s, it becomes hyper-sen-
(Ha ha)
[1:02:53]
DAH: Again!
AD: I wish you could see LaToya’s face right now.
DAH: I know. Ha ha. Each thing I say, it’s just like: Oh! Oh! Oh!
LS: These are awful! I don’t want these.
DAH: Yes. And it’s all hyper – again, very focused on these middle class perspectives.
LS: I mean, I’ll take that free house. Cause listen, rent is a mess.
DAH: Yeah.
AD: It’s not changing the basis of what – of the relations between human beings.
LS: It’s not.
DAH: Exactly.
LS: And it doesn’t call into question a settler state. It doesn’t call into question anti-Blackness. It’s sort of like, we’re giving you this, now shut up about it.
DAH: Exactly.
LS: No. We’re not gonna shut up about it. Cause –
DAH: Exactly. And this is something too that, I’ll add is, a lot of nations that have gone through sort of these like, really traumatic events, so like, Apartheid, um, Argentina’s National Reorganization Process. They’ve had these things called Truth and Reconciliation projects. Meaning that there’s a conversation, like, national conversations about the traumatic experience that we have gone through as a nation.
LS: Mhmm.
DAH: And the United States has never had a moment to really reckon with the slave trade, to reckon with Reconstruction, to reckon with state violence against Black folks for the past 4 centuries. And so, without having these deeper conversations about – like, deeper, not just conversations but like, actual reckoning with and apologizing for, these things that have happened for 400 years, just giving money or just giving whatever doesn’t actually fix it. It just forces us, as you said, to shut up. And it’s like, no, we need to really think about, why was it set up this way? What is the purpose for this practice? [1:04:26]
LS: Yeah, and Red Skin, White Masks, Glenn Coulthard’s – yes, but the book is Red Skin, White Masks, it is a really really really good book. He sort of, goes to task on these reconciliations that happen in settler states. Specifically how it happened in Canada.
DAH: Mhmm.
LS: Which is like, I’m sorry but then nothing changes.
DAH: Yeah.
LS: You’re throwing us crumbs and expecting us to move on. But that’s not how this works.
DAH: Yep.
[1:04:51]
AD: So, there’s so much.
DAH: Mhmm.
AD: Thank you for sharing and kind of like, getting us into the weeds, into the – not, I don’t even think it’s weeds, I think to the meat of what we need to be interrogating with genetic ancestry testing.
DAH: Mhmm.
AD: So, thank you for sharing all that information.
LS: Mhmm.
AD: And your work, and engaging in it. Um, are there ways that people can follow you? Or that connect with you if they want to? Or, there’s – is there something coming up that you’d like to, promote?
[1:05:20] DAH: Ha ha ha. So, yeah, you can find me on Twitter. I should actually know my Twitter name –
AD: I believe it’s…
DAH: Oh yeah.
(Ha ha ha)
DAH: So, my Twitter’s @Dev.Heyward. I’m trying to get back into that wave right now, so feel free to follow me there. You can also reach out to me at my email address, which I think you guys will post.
AD: We’ll post it.
DAH: And, yeah! Happy to talk, happy to think more. Um, trying to –
AD: Speaking anywhere anytime?
DAH: Oh yeah! So I’m speaking at BCC next week. I think the topic’s Racialized Becoming, so talking about some of the processes that the group went through that I worked with. As well as just thinking more deeply about genetic testing. And that’s next week, um, in October. There should be, potentially some video. So, once that’s available, I’ll probably to send it to y’all. Post that up.
AD: And BCC is Bronx Community College.
DAH: Yes, thank you. Ha ha ha. Uh yeah, so.
[1:06:20]
AD: So, thank you again. I’m blown away and like, so thankful for all the teaching.
LS: Yes. Yes. Yes.
AD: And the work that you’re doing.
DAH: I’m happy to be here.
LS: Great, thank you!
DAH: Thank you!
[1:06:34]
[Recording switch to different piece of recording.]
LS: Alright, so we hope that you enjoyed the first conversation with Devin, Professor Heyward.
AD: Doctor Heyward.
(Ha ha ha ha)
AD: We’re gonna do all the –
DAH: All the titles.
AD: All the titles.
LS: Black PhDs.
DAH: Ha ha ha.
LS: So, as you know, we always do a music, we ask every guest what they are currently listening to, then we listen to it, play you a clip of it and then we talk about it. But, today since Devin is here, we’re in the studio live, we’re gonna talk about it together.
[1:07:01]
LS: And so you mentioned Solange. I fucks with Solange heavy.
DAH: Yes. So, I’m like, trying to remember which one.
[Music begins playing.]
DAH: Oops. Yes, “Almeda”, so we’re gonna play “Almeda”.
LS: Ok.
DAH: By Solange, this is off of her most recent album, um…
LS: When I Get Home.
DAH: When I Get Home. Thank you! Ha ha ha. So yeah, so, we’ll just play it.
[1:07:23]
[♫ Playing “Almeda” by Solange.]
[1:07:51]
AD: So, you just heard from Solange’s latest album?
LS & DAH: Mhmm.
LS: When I Get Home. Is the album, the song was “Almeda.”
DAH: Mhmm.
AD: Uh, what did y’all – what makes you want to listen to that recently? Like, what was the vibe that you?
DAH: So it’s like, you know, there’s something to be said about repetition. So like –
AD: Hmmm.
DAH: You know, it’s almost every verse it’s the same general structure. But the words change, so it goes from like you know, talking about Brownness, brown liquor, Black and Brown skin, brown freckles, to you know Black hair, Black skin, like, Black possessiveness. Like, this, we’re self possessed in our Blackness.
AD: Yeah.
LS: Mhmm.
DAH: And then also using it as a way to like, Black bury the masters. Like, shit. Like, we gon’ take over this shit. Like, ha ha ha.
LS: Ha ha ha ha.
DAH: Like, it’s a real subtle like, yo, this is –
AD: She draws you in.
DAH: Yeah.
AD: For sure.
DAH: She draws you in. Like, this is. It’s a call to something. A call to revolution, a call to power. Like, yeah. So, it does something when I hear it.
AD: Mmm. Yeah, I was watching the lyrics as you played it.
DAH: Yeah, ha ha ha.
AD: I was like, Oh! I didn’t know it would do that. So, I was watching the lyrics like, was she in our conversation? Florida waters? She’s like, really pulling out a lot of things that we talked about actually.
DAH: Yeah.
AD: Because it’s prevalent in work that’s about reclamation and Blackness. And I feel like, Solange’s work is like really centering all of that.
DAH: For sure. Yeah.
[1:09:20]
AD: Toya, what did you think of that song? Cause you –
LS: Oh, I -
AD: Love it?
LS: Love it, especially the last two. I don’t know if I listen to Solange much before A Seat at the Table.
DAH: Yeah.
LS: But I think that album, and this album particularly does just speak to my soul. And so I used some of her songs in my dissertation too. So I put her in conversation with other theorists.
AD: That’s amazing by the way. Just, to kind put it in there.
LS: Ha ha.
DAH: Radical citation practices!
LS & DAH: Ha ha ha.
AD: What do you think about the artist?
LS: #citeBlackWomen .
DAH: Right.
LS: #citeBlackWomen. Ha ha ha.
AD: Why are you using music? What is it – what do you?
LS: Listen, I don’t do well with words. Like, I don’t. So it’s my way right. So it, like I was always told like growing up that I talk mad proper, that I – so I thought that I, had a good handle on the English language. I do not. So when I went to school, they would correct my English all the damn time. Like, up through high school, I would get my English corrected so I just don’t feel like I have a good handle on it. So, sometimes like, I feel like I know what I want to say, but I don’t quite have the words.
But, music. I’m always like, I don’t know what I’m trying to say, but let me play this song for you that speaks it beautifully.
DAH: Mhmm.
LS: And so, Solange has some works where it’s like, I don’t need to say it because Solange already said it. So what, why – what is the point of me speaking it when I could just play this? [1:10:35]
DAH: Mhmm.
LS: Did I answer? What was your question? AD: No, I just – why were – I feel like…
LS & DAH: Ha ha ha ha.
AD: I don’t know if it’s common that people, cause you are also a doctoral, about to be doctor yourself.
LS: Mhmm.
AD: And so, there’s, you know –
LS: Like, in a year and a half.
AD: It’s gonna happen.
DAH: It’s gonna happen.
AD: But, it’s interesting because I don’t know how common it is for music or this kind of art to be a part of like, what we think as like, gonna be in a PhD. You know, like, I think that’s really amazing that you are disrupting kind of like, what I think is disrupting.
DAH: Yeah.
LS: Mhmm.
AD: What’s considered like, academic or whatever.
DAH: Right. Yeah.
[1:11:12]
LS: Yeah, academia…oh, the way they make you write. It’s like, first of all, nobody speaks like this.
DAH: Mhmm.
LS: This is next level, y’all are extra for no reason. Like, there’s no reason for a paragraph – for like this, I don’t know, I don’t like it. It’s soulless.
DAH: Mhmm.
LS: It like takes emotion out, it takes - yeah, I just. I don’t like it.
AD: Yeah.
LS: Cause I talk, like. Awesome.
DAH: Exactly.
LS: Black girl hand gestures. All day long.
DAH: All day long.
(Laughing)
DAH: Yeah.
LS: It’s like, you can’t put that into writing. Ha.
DAH: You can’t. Even, as you were saying, I cited Urban Dictionary.
LS: Mhmm.
DAH: Like, cause Urban Dictionary explained like, what woke is in a way that nobody else can explain what woke means.
LS: Mmm.
DAH: In our culture. And I cited Nina Simone, like.
LS: Mmmm.
DAH: It’s important to recognize that like, a lot of the stuff that I’m writing about –
LS: Mhmm.
DAH: Is already written musically.
LS: Yeah.
DAH: Like, it’s out there and it may not have the fancy theory, it may not have like, the language that academia expects it to have, but it’s speaking to a process. Like, it’s speaking to what people are experiencing. So, yeah.
[1:12:17]
AD: And I think the more that we try that. And acknowledge it, I think it’s also sometimes present that people do – but we don’t, I don’t know – I’m just gonna say that, maybe un-generally, whatever, too generally, but I think acknowledging it and highlighting it.
LS: Mhmm.
AD: Like, my ideas are also informed and also my practices are informed by art and by things that are not spoken.
DAH: Yeah.
AD: We can be in a room and it can be silent, but there can be lots of learning and communication that’s happening.
LS & DAH: Mhmm.
AD: So, I think it’s amazing that music is part of your dissertation, your work, and just kinda how we learn from each other. So.
DAH: Mhmm.
AD: This song was great. I thought it was beautiful.
DAH: Yeah.
AD: I agree with your like, her repetition, the layers.
DAH: Yeah.
AD: She was kinda like, oh oh, and then you get deeper and deeper and you’re like, swimming. Ha ha.
DAH: You’re deep in the waters. Yeah.
AD: Thanks for sharing!
DAH: Of course.
LS: Yeah, thank you!
DAH: Of course.
LS: That is our episode, thank you again, Devin for being here.
AD: Mhmm.
DAH: Thank you for having me! I had fun. Ha ha.
AD: And we’ll see you guys, or not see you –
(Laughing)
LS: Next time!
DAH: Ha ha ha ha/
AD: Hopefully we’ll see you, at some to be, future event that we’ll be hosting that we’ll be coordinating. We’ll get those details out to you. But um, yeah, we’ll be in touch.
LS: Bye!
[1:13:49]
[♫ Musical outro.]
AD: Check us out at Abolition Science [dot] org, where you can sign up for our newsletter.
LS: And follow us on Instagram @abolitionscience and also follow us on Twitter @abolition_sci
AD: See you soon!
