Radical STEMM Educators
In this episode, we speak to several members from Radical STEMM. They are a group of STEMM (Science, Technology, Engineering, Mathematics, and Making) educators in the Bay Area committed to PK-12 education grounded in liberation pedagogy.
Episode Mentions
@bbyanarchists
Connect with Radical STEMM
Twitter @RadicalSTEMMEd
Transcript (Please Excuse Errors)
[Music Intro ♫]
LaToya [LS]: Hey listeners! Welcome to Abolition Science Radio, we’re your hosts. I’m LaToya Strong-
Atasi [AD]: And I’m Atasi Das. We’re here to talk all things science and math and their relationship to-
LS: Colonialism
AD: Oppression
LS: Resistance
AD: Education
LS: Liberation
AD: And so much more.
[ ♫ Music fade out.]
[0:25]
AD: Hey listeners! Oh…I took your line…
LS: It’s ok! It’s ok.
AD: Ha ha ha ha.
LS: You did so well. You did it good.
AD: Thanks. Hey y’all.
LS: A little more inflection, but it’s ok.
(Both laugh)
AD: Oh, that was funny.
LS: Ah.
AD: How you doing?
LS: Good, how are you?
AD: I’m alright. Chillin’.
LS: Nothing changed in the last five minutes?
AD: Nothing’s changed in the last five minutes. Still a good day.
LS: Mhmm. We had – wait, what is it called? Day – no, what is it called when the clocks change?
AD: Daylight savings.
LS: It’s daylight savings. I thought that was – wait, is both times called daylight savings?
AD: This is a good question. It is called Daylight Savings. In the calendar.
LS: And then when we do it in the Fall, it’s called – tsk, shit.
AD: Ha ha ha ha.
LS: In the fall, it’s also called Daylight Savings?
AD: I believe so.
LS: Someone posted on Twitter, in the Fall one, they were like, damn it’s dark as hell, how much daylight y’all trying to save?
(Both laughing.)
AD: That’s so funny. Listen, I didn’t even know it was daylight savings that was coming up. I woke up and I was like, tired.
LS: Mhmm.
AD: Were you prepared?
LS: I wasn’t. It felt weird. And today, which is Monday, it just went by so fast. But I think it’s cause I was still getting used to the hour.
AD: Yeah. Yeah, sneaks up on me. Yeah, so it’s daylight savings.
LS: But I didn’t even pay attention. Was it lighter out longer? I didn’t…
AD: Well, we get up earlier now. So…
LS: It’s darker.
AD: The sunset.
LS: Oh.
AD: Later.
LS: Right. Oh, it’s… ha ha ha.
AD: Ha ha ha.
[2:01]
AD: We…
LS: Ok, yes. But, theory into action.
AD: Ha.
LS: Or practice. Did you notice a difference?
AD: No. I think we’re too far North. In the country.
LS: I. You know what I did. I, to get here, I walked through that park. Instead of going all the way down 145th.
AD: Mhmm.
LS: You turn left.
AD: Yeah, you took the stairs.
LS: I took those stairs. I was like, oh, I think it was lighter – I don’t think I paid attention to it in the moment. But reflecting on it.
AD: Because you could see. And you could go down those stairs.
LS: Mhmm.
AD: And it was like 6, and it wasn’t dark.
LS: Exactly.
AD: Right.
LS: Mhmm.
AD: Now you know everybody’s schedule, listeners.
LS: Well, if we’re being technical, it was like 6:30.
(Both chuckle.)
[2:40]
LS: Ok, Go To.
AD: Ok.
LS: We’re gonna do a Go-To, and then we’re gonna get into what we doin.
AD: Alright.
LS: I don’t know if you’re ready for this Go-To.
AD: Oh, ok.
LS: Ok. A song that like, maybe you’re feeling a little down, maybe all the -isms of the world gotchu upset. But a song that you listen to that sort of like, reminds you like, who the fuck you are.
AD: Oh.
LS: Mhmm.
AD: That’s a good question. Hold on, lemme think about it. It depends, so, sometimes I like wallowing. So, “Lean on Me” [by Bill Withers] or something. (Singing voice) Lean on me..
LS: Mhmm.
AD: Or, like.
LS: Wait, what’d you say you like wallowing?
AD: Wallowing.
LS: What is that?
AD: You’re like, I’m sad. I’m gonna stay sad. I don’t need no one to tell me that I’m - like, I have it. I’m all together, you know. Like, I wanna stay in that place.
LS: Ok.
AD: So, not that “Lean On Me” is saying sad things, but it kind of like, the mood of it.
LS: (Making song noises)
AD: (Joining in making song noises)
LS: Ha ha ha.
AD: And then you’re just like, ok. I gotchu. Or, you know, you got me. That’s kind of like, but, yeah. What would you say? If you’re in that place, you want something that’ll like, just remind you.
[3:48]
LS: Oh, if I’m in a sad place? Or just like, you took it to sadness.
AD: Yes, yeah.
LS: I was not. I mean, you could – whatever, however you want to take it.
AD: That’s where I took it, yeah.
LS: Ok.
AD: Well, how would you take it? What were you thinking? LS: I didn’t have like a place, where I guess. I’m just gonna give you my song.
AD: Ok, good, I’m ready.
LS: Um. Megan Thee Stallion.
AD: Any particular track?
LS: Yes. Uh my mind…
(Both laugh)
LS: My mind just went blank. Oh, “Realer” off her Fever Mixtape. First song on the mixtape.
AD: Nice. Can you do it?
LS: No, y’all should just go play it.
AD: Ha ha ha ha.
LS: She’s uh. I fuck with her.
AD: You love Megan Thee Stallion.
LS: I do.
AD: Yeah, you bring her up a lot.
LS: She’s sort of colorist, and she - a lot of internalized misogyny.
AD: Oh. What, in the videos it comes up or what?
LS: Just in her lyrics.
AD: Oh.
LS: But you know what, sometimes, ha ha.
AD: But still. Rockin it.
LS: You need what you need. You need what you need, and that’s what I need.
AD: Mm.
LS: She dropped a new album.
AD: Nice.
LS: Yeah. Or, I don’t know if it’s an album or a mixtape. Ok, but yes.
AD: Have you ever seen her? In person? Like, live or whatever?
LS: No.
AD: Perform. What’s the word?
LS: I haven’t. I don’t know if I would.
[4:53]
AD: So, what are we talking about today?
LS: So, today. So this is another episode that we recorded in Hawaii. And, it is with a group called Radical STEMM. STEMM, with two M’s. So, we had never heard of this group.
AD: Yeah.
LS: But when we got there, it turns out we know people that are in this group.
AD: Right. Such a small world.
LS: Mhmm.
AD: And so they reached out to us. I mean, we were just having the conversation is like, hey we’d love to talk to you! Would you want to talk to us? And, that’s how it started.
LS: That is how it started. So again, at the Creating Balance Conference in Hawaii, they were presenting…
AD: …kinda what they’re working on.
LS: Mhmm.
AD: And we got to ask them kinda, yeah, who they are? What they do? And so, we’d like to share that with you.
LS: And about the group. Yeah. So normally we introduce the guests, but we asked each of them to introduce themselves, so.
AD: Right.
LS: You’ll hear that. Alright, let’s get to it.
AD: Great.
[5:48]
[Switches to recording from CBUW.]
LS: Alright, so we are here, still in Hawaii. And we are with and organization called Radical STEMM. And so, if you all could introduce yourselves. And how you got to Radical STEMM and what is Radical STEMM.
Kari Kokka (KK): I am Kari Kokka. I am an Assistant Professor of Mathematics Education at the University of Pittsburgh in Pittsburgh, PA, not Pittsburgh, CA. (Chuckles.) I am originally from San Jose, CA. And I was living in Oakland, CA while I was dissertating. And so, Radical STEMM, I got involved with while I was in the Bay Area. I met Reina Cabezas, at Free Minds Free People. She came to a session that I had facilitated. I met Vanson at a previous Creating Balance. We still don’t remember how we became friends, Celine. And, I think, it was through those connections that – actually, oh, we were interested. I don’t remember if it was you or Reina, interested in studying – it was Reina who was interested in starting a STEM, Women of Color in STEM group. Yeah. Reina had really wanted to start a Women of Color in STEM group, so after I presented, she explained like, this was her interest. And I said, oh! I wanna, I’m interested, I wanna join also. So you can jump in as to, maybe how we all got started.
[7:13]
Celine (C): So, I’m Celine. Bay Area. I was a high school math teacher in New Jersey. Actually grew up teaching there. Um, moved out to the Bay in 2013. I had met Reina through like friends and colleagues in Education. And so, somehow our paths converged. Yeah, it’s this weird thing that we can’t remember. It’s just always felt so natural, like. We just always knew each other. Anyways. And so, Reina and I started talking about kind of, forming this community and, so we really framed it around this idea of women of color in STEM thinking about how our identities were impacting the work that we’re doing. How to really lift up folks with some of those identity markers in the STEM fields. And as we moved forward and tried to build and grow, we realized that, actually the opportunity to have these conversations was more expansive, even than just kind of limiting it to that. And so, yeah. We just kinda started to grow from there.
[8:18]
Vanson Nguyen (VN): So, I’m Vanson Nguyen, I teach math at the College of Alameda. I’m from San Francisco, CA, born and raised. And I’ve spent the majority of my life in the Bay Area of California. I don’t quite remember how I got to Radical STEMM. I think there’s been so many good times, that I haven’t done the historical research. But if I were to dig deep, then I think it’s because I met Kari. And I had met Celine at another time, and I was helping table at a Creating Balance event. And I said, oh yeah, help out whoever needs help. And, ha, I know Kari pretty well. What I know about Kari is, she does things intentionally. And I remember that time, ha, Reina and Celine were tabled next to each other, so I know I told Kari – you did that on purpose didn’t you? (Background laughs) And, ha ha ha, and I feel like that was like the birth, of the Women of Color in STEM and Teaching Mathematics for Social Justice had a baby and it was Radical STEMM. (Laughs) I’m only repeating words that I heard.
[9:34]
KK: Yeah, that’s funny. I mean, I do like to invite, organize, yes. You know, like, oh, would you be interested in facilitating this workshop? Would you be interested? I think it would be a great idea if you were a leader in…We can always put out the invitation, and people can choose to say yes or no. But I unfortunately am heading to the airport. I get to go home to the Bay Area for a day, on my way back to Pennsylvania. And I will see you all in San Francisco for AERA in April. And I’ll see you all then too hopefully.
[10:16]
C: I just wanna speak a little bit about how Kari organized us into this space too. So actually, Radical STEMM is entering – we’re turning 5 this year. And we came out of the Creating Balance Conference. Creating Balance is a phenomenal space, and like the folks before mentioned, like there’s so much energy and inspiration but so often we’re working in isolation with this kind of mindset in work. And so, we talked about the need to have a space for this to continue in a community, in between these amazing moments which are the Creating Balance for an Unjust World Conference. And so, that was a little bit also of the motivation behind the forming of this group.
Also in terms of like, who Radical STEMM is, we have three principles that drive our work and our thinking as a community of practice, which is really educators who are interested in thinking about critical, liberatory education in STEMM with two M’s, fields, and we add the second M for making. Those three principles are, led by women of color. So thinking about kind of that origin of a Women of Color in STEMM group, recognizing who are the dominant voices and what is the dominant message in STEMM fields. And wanting to be different. The second principle is around being interconnected and manifesting that through a naturalist perspective and a humanist perspective. That STEMM is used so often to destroy communities. To harm people. To harm the Earth, and how do we redirect the work and the thinking so that we kind of live into a care and a community building way of STEMM. And then the last principle is STEMM through an ethnic studies lens. Which is what we presented on here at the conference this time. What does it mean for those two areas to converge and intersect?
[12:22]
VN: So I would describe it as, I guess on the surface, or using the jargon at my school, is a community of practice. However, when I think about it from the heart, I think of it as, it’s the homies. I think of it as the loved ones. I think of it as people that came to my wedding. I think of it as a space for me to heal, in from, society and how – I mean, I teach in a system that perpetuates oppression in society. I think of it as a place where I can innovate, but maybe innovate isn’t the right word for me. A place where I can be connected again with mother Earth and how nature drives science. I will say that perspective about nature driving science is, it was always kinda in me but then when it was said at the conference, I was like, Ah, that’s it. So for me, Radical STEMM is all of those. And a bunch more that I haven’t been able to articulate yet.
[13:27]
C: So I think one more thing, because we talked about the history of Radical STEMM and how we came to be, actually tying it back to our workshop where we looked at some geometry and looking at some texts of some mathematical thinkers who are juxtaposing kinda a Euclidian geometry frame of like, everything in the world is connected by a straight line, right. And that’s like the closest distance between two things. And in an indigenous Native perspective, that says actually like, the circle is the foundation of everything and everything is a cycle. And so, in terms of our history of Radical STEMM, we all intersected in lots of different spaces. And I think the creation of this intentional space, was to make an intentional space so that we wouldn’t have to run into each other by accident. And be so excited when we saw each other in this math space, or that science space, or this social justice education space that didn’t have a STEM lens, that like, hey this is a need and we all like, feed each other and are hungry for this. And so, like, let’s just make that happen. So, yeah, totally not linear. Like, lots of intersections and super super messy to land at the place where we are.
[14:32]
LS: Thank you. So many questions. Ok, I will come back to the third principle and focus on the second “M” that you added in STEMM or making and can you speak to us about why you added that M, and ha ha, yeah, just why you added that M and what that does to the STEMM framework? Or maybe what it does FOR the STEMM framework?
[14:54]
C: So, again, call into the space Reina Cabezas. So, Reina is currently a high school science teacher, and when we started, actually she was a middle school, um, engineering teacher. And was coaching engineering in Oakland Unified for a couple years. And so, as we think even, about like, the E in engineering which is connected to making. We named the fact that the maker movement, in so many ways has co-opted what has been a cultural historical practice in communities. And so, wanting to really make that explicit. As we think about like, the ways that we’re shifting, like how we talk about STEMM in classrooms. So, I’m not doing that question justice, like I think Reina will be able to speak to it much much better, but that’s a little bit of the history behind it.
[15:45]
LS: I think that that history of making is completely unknown to most until there’s folks like us in the room being like, just so ya know, but also there’s a lot of Department of Defense funding that goes into a lot of those making things. Which folks also don’t know, which is, at the least, it’s troublesome. But the third principle, STEMM through an Ethnic Studies lens. So my dissertation, like research, is like - how – bridging Ethnic Studies and the STEMM field. So I am excited. But if you all could speak about how you came to that like, this is important for STEMM and this is the lens for you all that you wanna take up STEMM with. STEMM with two Ms, so it’s like STEMM. Ha ha ha. (Laughs in background)
[16:31]
C: So, we are a, like growing, live, body of things, right. And, for me, personally, this is an area where I’ve been doing some intentional work, and then organizationally, we’ve been doing some intentional work to actually better understand what exactly that means. And so, I think when we identified it back in the day, our understanding of ethnic studies was like, how are we grounded in the histories, resistance, institutionalized personal oppressions of people, and how does that inform, right, these like neutral spaces of STEMM and STEMM education?
So, we’re trying to deepen our understanding because we’re coming at this from like, the math science engineering backgrounds and don’t necessarily have a lot of grounding in that theory and research and framework. So, for example, when we started to dig in to this last year, we started with a study of like, ethnomathematics and we started with a study of Marilyn Powell and Arthur Frankenstein’s book on ethnomathematics. [Note: Corrected by speaker later in transcript, book is Ethnomathematics by Arthur B. Powell and Marilyn Frankenstein.] D’Ambrosio talks about mathematics as a function of human activity and need, and it manifests differently depending on what you’re doing. And what you need math for. And so, our book study kind of centered there, so the next step is actually to dig into the Rethinking Schools ethnic studies and to connect with folks who are more embedded in the ethnic studies frame and to try to build bridges and learn from them and also I think too, you know, Vanson in today’s workshop was saying he’s been doing some work around like, institutionally connecting math and ethnic studies, but not just like integrating ethnic studies into the math world, but really pushing math into the ethnic studies world as well. So, Vanson, I don’t know if you wanna talk a little bit more about that.
[18:37]
VN: Yes. I connected with a local feeder high school district, Oakland Unified. We worked together on some grant and I found the “head math people”, and I put that in quotes, they’re the district math coordinators or something like that. And I told them about some of the work that I was doing with Radical STEMM, and that’s when they informed me that that was a next step for their ethnic studies department, is to get math and particular, ethno-math into their ethnic studies classrooms. And I said, oh, for real?! Let me know, I would love to be a part of those conversations. Hit me up, holla at your boy, so, that’s just kind of where that’s at right now. There’s a next step for. Well actually I’m just waiting for a response, ha. An email response, so that’s where that is right now. In terms of some like, next steps for me outside of Radical STEMM to report back to Radical STEMM. If that makes sense, yes.
[19:39]
AD: It’s so interesting to hear, kinda your stories that you’ve shared about this need to create communities, or organizing study, politicized spaces, with one another, to deepen this work and so, you know, you spoke a little bit about a particular activity, a particular thing that you’re working with the school district, so it sounds kinda like, with schools in a broad way, maybe in classrooms, maybe in your spaces, and so my question is gonna be a little bit broad. What is your sense of ethnic studies and ethnomathematics has a history that’s, you know, a good number of decades, you know, it’s been – people have been researching and thinking about it, and our need to still find one another to study it means that, it’s somehow been pushed to the side. Because we, when we find each other, we feed each other, and we’re like finally someone else. So what is your sense of why are the conditions that’s happening that are bringing this back into conversation, like, why is ethnic studies, in your mind, and maybe specifically to Oakland, coming up in a particular way? And I mean, obviously there’s a department and so, that means there’s organizing that happened to make that a possibility. Yeah, so I don’t know if my questions clear as much as like, what’s happening around that makes you think like, this is regaining like a particular kind of consciousness?
[21:06]
VN: I think, recently, I’ve heard school districts adopt ethnic studies for like, high school. And then it gets to middle school, and then it’s across all the grades. To my, limited knowledge, it’s because, I mean, ethnic studies helps GPA and graduation rates and attendance rates. You know, I beg the question about for what. So they can go and work out in the job field? Or they can become, they go to college? Higher college going rate? And then, for what? Are they still gonna make the rich richer? Are they still gonna work at Lockheed Martin to make bombs to bomb other countries? And so, I feel like, uh, the “higher ups,” I put “higher ups” in quotes are you know, somewhat co-opting ethnic studies as a means of furthering this agenda of – well, let’s just get people into jobs. Well, if they graduate, then that’s good and that’s kinda it there. That is to say that, all the ethnic studies teachers I know are like, nahh no no no no, the grades are a byproduct of knowing oneself, and knowing one’s history. And they’ll also say the grades aren’t the end. Like, that’s not like, the end goal. So, I feel like for us, the ethnic studies piece is, back to, I feel like, it’s interconnected with the other two principles about interconnectedness, naturalistic, humanistic, and also with – led by Women of Color, that – well, I’ll speak more to the humanistic part because that part I understand more, as not being a woman of color. So, if we are connected more to the Earth than we are, not taking advantage of Mother Earth. So, I think that’s kind of like, an easy thing for me to like, share with people. So, I may have gone off on too much of a tangent there, but I think if students learn the connection of STEMM and ethnic studies, great, they’re gonna do better in their math classes. They’re gonna feel more connected to STEMM, and to me that’s still insufficient. Because then you’re graduating and you’re still gonna make the rich richer and work at places that creates bombs. I mean, you know that’s maybe a few more years down the line, but I feel like, of the people in Rad STEMM, we’re aware of that. You know, it’s not just graduation for graduation’s sake.
[23:42]
C: That’s a really interesting question. I can’t wait to like, ask you all some questions, because I have so many questions ha ha ha ha. So I think your question was kind of like, why now? Why is ethnic studies kind of popping up bigger? Like, what is it about this historical moment and I wonder if it’s popping up bigger or as like, we are able to connect differently through technology, right. And have different kinds of communities that actually we’re like, finding out more about what’s been happening in different spaces and able to grow on it a little bit. I don’t know the answer to that question necessarily, but there is something about like, I’m so glad Vanson mentioned for example, like Seattle Public Schools and their math and ethnic studies framework that they just came out with too. Right, like, there’s something about what’s happening in discourse around like, critical race theory and intersectionality, that I think activists are in like, you know, STEMM education activists are thinking like, how do we leverage this work and these ideas from different spaces and intersection in that way to inform and move our work forward? So intersectionality in almost like, like a different, like a systemic or idea kind of way? Yeah, I would love to know what you two think of that. Especially cause you’re thinking about it in the context of science and yeah.
[25:24]
AD: I asked the question because I’ve been thinking about it and how a simultaneously that there are these movements that are punctuated from the Arab Spring, from Ferguson, and even though there continue to be move, you know like, movement in the streets but not in the same volume right. And so, and at the same time, there’s, um, hyper exploitation. Thinking of technology, particularly digital technology, which is like, so embedded and so interconnected with all this hyper-exploitation to mine, from uranium to all the different that are a part of making it. So the things that are connecting us are also connected to the intensive exploitation. So, I’m like this polarization between what I would like, extreme fascist type of movements rising, and at the same time, the resistance that kind of is also emerging, continues to be emerging. I don’t want to be like, it wasn’t there – you know, it’s there, so I’m just reflecting upon that. Is this why again? Cause, we’re, you know, I feel like there’s a number of folks that I learn from all the time that are looking back to the 60s and 70s and this is, you know, it’s been, people look back to that time of movement as like, one place. And then, people are like, no there’s been prior to that, other punctuated times in the 20s, or what not. So, I don’t have an answer, but it just is interesting that at a time of extreme exploitation and fascist development, there’s also this different possible – maybe different. I don’t know, like going back to your point.
[27:13]
LS: I understood the question, your question was Atasi’s question? No? (Mhmm, yeah.) Ok. Um, ok just making sure ha ha. I do not know. It’s also something that I haven’t given thought to. It’s just, here thinking about it – I think like, critical or social justice oriented math and science and related field folks have always been absorbed to general like, educational social justice movements. And I don’t know what got all of us to be like, hey, we could just like, organize around this on our own. Not like, without those folks, but it’s always like History or English cause it, the connections are more clear, more apparent. Whereas science and math, it’s not, not so much and I think, I don’t know what the. Maybe it was the science march where we’re all like the fuck. Ha ha. Or March for Science, what was it called? March for Science, maybe not. Cause in doing this, like, Color Coded Collective, who’s on the West Coast, we’ve been able to have conversations with. Rad STEMM, now we’re having conversations with you all. There’s Free Radicals, and so there are these like, pockets and I think the conversations with them, I was like, yeah we were experiencing all these things. And then we’re all like, why don’t we just do this thing? That’s – it is very interesting. But I would like to go back to something that you said. Vanson, when you talked about the co-opting of ethnic studies. For me, what I think you were getting at, how I was understanding it was this idea of liberal multiculturalism. So, we’re not really doing critical, once the state or the institution or the man, if you will, takes it over, it becomes this watered down thing. And it’s like, now you too can be the CEO of a company and exploit your own people. And so, I guess my question for everyone, including you too Atasi, is like, what, how do we, I don’t know what it is that we are doing or not doing that allows these movements to be co-opted. And so, what would it look like to organize in a way where there is no way for them to co-opt it? But I don’t, listen, the oppressors work in miraculous ways. I don’t know if that’s possible but everyt ime I see something from the ground, like grassroots pushing and pushing and pushing. When it gets taken up, it’s like how do we go from what we asked for to what –
[29:31]
VN: Before I respond, I wanna make a clarification on the book that we’re reading – it’s Marilyn Frankenstein and Arthur Powell.
Ok, so, to, my response to that question is – the oppressive elite have a lot of resources and time. And, as a result, they can co-opt, find ways to co-opt many grassroots movements. So that the grassroots movements aren’t as powerful anymore. So, I hear people say, well oh, so social justice is thrown everywhere now and it doesn’t have the same feeling anymore. But, that probably wasn’t the case ten years ago or twenty years ago. And so, this is probably. I feel like a first step towards that, well, we need ethnic studies. You absolutely have to have ethnic studies. I kinda feel like that’s going to be something later on down the line. And then, in the ethnic studies teaching. The people who teach it are starting, will get watered down as well. And then, the curriculum will get watered down and then we’re back to where we’re at now. It’s another way for the man, to hold us down. I’m not sure, I think the man’s always gonna find a way, to like try to stop us. We can’t stop, won’t stop! Eh eh eh eh, we’ll just keep finding more grassroots resistance.
[30:57]
C: So I think, you know, as we just think about the history of this country and the world and the parallel tracks of oppression and resistance. Unfortunately, sadly, like there’s always going to be oppression, but there will also always be resistance. And I don’t know if there is like, this is the way to prevent the co-optation, but I think through the continued resistance. Like, that is the only way that we can interrupt it. And I’m just like, over and over again, the phrase that keeps coming up in my head, is like, we just gotta make the road by walking. Like, they’re always gonna try to yeah – take the power. Right, so.
[31:34]
AD: Am I answering this, or am I?
LS: Mhmm.
AD: Ok. Oh dang. I was gonna ask another question. Ok. Slide out. Ok. Kind of, I have a similar sentiment that you just shared of, this you know, in a sense of like, power is both something that’s created and also like, we are capable of every, I’m gonna be a human – humanistic I guess here, all people can have it and use it and garner it. And I think, as groups of humans, there will always be this tension in a sense of like, in what way we use and utilize power. So, there – movements can mean in any direction. It doesn’t necessarily have to be liberatory. And I think from my standpoint, and I would say from yours, the movements that we want to support or build are ones that are about – I’m trying to, not say liberatory, but mean kind of liberatory, because I feel like, to, what does that actually mean? That we are able to have food, clothing, shelter. To have health, good health, well health, and connection. In a, oh my god, I’m just like using catch phrases, every single word is taken. This is the thing, right. Like every single word I’m like, but no, it’s used in this way in this discourse which is then – so then it’s like, so what do I exactly mean? Because I don’t necessarily mean that other way. Yeah, I think it’s just a – movements can go in many directions and so it’s always gonna be an ongoing process, and the co-optation is just of – I don’t have an answer. I don’t have an answer. I just think it’s, at this point, like, most humans have a boot on the necks of, control of our own power.
[33:28]
LS: Yeah, I’m hear – like, what I’m hearing from the three of you, like all roads point to the revolution. No, I’m being serious, like people continue to resist. Like, I am tired of resisting. Like, getting co-opted. And then, resisting again. And then I feel like that it, I think that’s the answer to my question – they cannot co-opt the revolution. Has a revolution ever been co-opted? Oh ok, well we need to do a better.. (A better revolution) A better revolution. (Laughing in background.)
[33:56]
LS: So, I was thinking about like what Vanson was saying as things get co-opted and then like, I’m thinking of, specifically right now. For some reason, about Barack Obama. And how people are so excited to have a Black president.
AD: As a revolution?
LS: Girl, no.
AD: Oh, ok. I was like, whatchu talking about?
(Laughing in background)
LS: Absolutely not. But like, this idea that’s like, oh this is what the ancestors died for – like noo, they did not. The ancestors did not die so that we could be absorbed into a system that continues to exploit us, or exploit other people. So what does it mean, yes we have the first Black president, but of the settler-anti-Black United States of America. Like, imperial. I don’t know, so, maybe, y’all answered my question for me, thank you. Every time I get here, I was like, x here, there’s only one road, and I know what that road is, alright. You had another question.
[34:43]
AD: I – No.
LS: We wanna be respectful of your time, but I was wondering if you could speak to us about some of the collective work that Radical STEMM has done.
[34:53]
C: Collective work, any, uh uh.
LS: Or like, work that’s – yes.
C: Yeah.
LS: There was no need for me to say collective. Because you are a collective, so some of the work that Radical STEMM has done.
[35:02]
C: Uh huh. So like, kind of family space, right. And so, supporting each other in different areas and again, I’m gonna say like, it’s a place where people come to heal. So that they can continue their fights, in wherever they are. And, to know that they don’t stand alone. So that’s like a soft kind of like, very nebulous answer. I mean, some of the specific stuff, so we have, for example, done some work bringing in educators to like, tinker with laser cutters. And 3D printers. And think about how to bring like, an ethnic studies like, cultural lens to these somewhat like, abstracted making spaces. You know, we’ve supported Creating Balance in like, creating space at the last conference to help people build and have that safe space. Radical STEMM has been involved, there was, for awhile, in the Bay Area, like a social justice math study group. And so, has been kind of a, fomenting ground, like an idea growing ground. To inform that work, and I can just speak to that because I was a part of that community. And that’s actually another space where Vanson and actually, one of our other initial founding members, Jim Malamut, and I have like done work together. Right, so. In Radical STEMM, we get to like, think about and play with much more like, progressive left ideas. And then, kind of bring them into these slightly more mainstream spaces. Like, probably a little bit modified from the ways we talk about it in our own circles. And then I’ll also just say, over our existence, we’ve had some tensions of being a small group of folks who are also all doing our own things and we for a long time put a lot of effort into like, recruiting folks and building folks and like, wanting to have as many like. As much participation and as many ideas as possible, and found ourselves spending so much time on that. That we didn’t actually get to like, dig in so much into, you know, what we’ve been talking about here. And so, I would say most recently for example, like our book study. So the idea from that happened when like, Seattle shared their math and ethnic studies framework. Maria Zavala, who’s at San Francisco State, was like, hey, let’s talk about this. So, she’s also one of our key members. And, in our conversation, in one of our calls, we were like, oh, like, do you think folks would be interested in a conference on math and ethnic studies. And we were like, yeah let’s do it. There’s this grant thing we can do and we were like, um, so but like, maybe we should understand it a little bit more. So again, just that tension between growing, the external work, and then also like, deepening our understanding. Yeah, so those are anyways, the kinds of ways that we’ve been over our time together.
[38:09]
LS: Yeah, so, we, I mean, again. So many more questions. We wanna be respectful of your time and then the space that we’re in. The last thing we will ask you, which maybe we’ll cut this to the beginning, maybe we’ll leave it here, we don’t know. We always ask our guests what they’re listening to, like your current Go-To song, or the current album that you are – that’s on repeat that you’re vibing to. So, if you could just tell us, who you’re listening to right now.
[38:32]
C: Wow. That’s a really hard question. I didn’t really grow up with a lot of like, media, right. Like music. But, I will say probably the theme for me when I think about the work we’re doing is a song by Tracy Chapman, it’s like, ‘if not now then when?” Right (singing voice), ‘if not today, then why make your promises’. So, yeah like that urgency but also because it’s Tracy Chapman and like, literally I have like a physical visceral reaction. It’s like, it comes from such that loving place.
[39:06]
LS: Oh, thank you. Yes, so, we started with three. We lost Kari, then we lost Vanson. And now, we’re here with Celine, so thank you. That just speaks, folks had to leave and catch flights, and so thankful that even pressed for time, folks gave us their time. So thank you for giving us your time!
But there are still three of us here, but, I guess we started with six. Math, I’m not. (Laughing)
AD: Cool.
[39:34]
C: Can I just say also thank you. Like, this, I just enjoyed this conversation and I also have so many more questions. So we’ll continue, appreciate it.
LS: Oh. How can folks find Radical STEMM? Like, how can they get in contact. How can they support? How can they?
AD: Or what’s upcoming stuff.
LS: Yeah, what’s upcoming things that you have going on?
[39:47]
C: I mean, I think that the best way to get connected is we have a Facebook page and group. I’m not on that platform right now, but you can just search Radical STEMM Educators. It should come up. We do have a Twitter account as well. It’s Radical STEMM Educators [@RadicalSTEMMEd] is our handle. Again, the two M’s. Upcoming events, I don’t think we have anything external planned right now. So I think the best way to get in touch with us is through one of those avenues and yeah, then we’ll just connect and build from there.
[40:15]
AD: Great, thank you.
[40:16]
[♫ Music begins: Tracy Chapman: “If Not Now”.]
[41:39]
AD: So you just heard a bit from Tracy Chapman’s song, “If Not Now”, which was recorded live in Oakland, CA, and it was performed in 1988. So it was awhile ago.
LS: Oh wow, yeah.
AD: Yeah.
LS: We were babies.
AD: Yeah. Yes. Kids.
LS: Ha ha ha.
AD: I hadn’t heard that song before.
LS: I hadn’t either. AD: It’s an interesting lyrics, and I feel like they’re kinda like – it’s a good question. If not now, then when? Good question Tracy.
LS: It’s a really good question. Especially now with primaries happening, and elections, liberal politics.
AD: All the empty promises. Why make your promises for all these things, it’s as good as none.
LS: Yeah.
(Both laughing)
AD: I’m just gonna pick, cherry pick her lines, be like, this applies to right now.
LS: It’s as good as none. No, it’s true. Like, people are like, Trump just gotta be gone. Noo.
AD: We’re going there. That’s right.
LS: Yes. So, if not now, and like, asking people to vote for the lesser of two evils.
AD: Mmmm.
LS: Like, the lesser of two evils for who?
AD: Yeah.
LS: But anyway, the word love, not anyway, I guess in addition to, I guess, ha ha ha, I’m like the word love is like an interesting word. I have a tattoo that says: ‘the Revolution will be filled with love.’
AD: Mhmm. Mhmm.
LS: It’s really after I got this tattoo, Hillary Clinton came out with that, ‘Love Trumps Hate’ statement.
AD: Ohhh.
LS: And so I’ve always had to like –
AD: Preface yours.
LS: Preface mine, because it’s not the same types of love.
AD: Ahhh. It’s true, that word is leveraged multiple ways.
LS: Mhmm.
AD: So, how would you say? Yeah?
LS: I’m not, how I would say it – you know, there’s a page on Instagram Baby Anarchists.
AD: Mmm. B-B-Y
LS: B-B-Y
AD: Anarchists.
LS: Oh, I love it. I mean I’m – I don’t know who their biggest fan is…
(Both laughing)
LS: Maybe it’s me, I don’t know, I don’t know. I like to think that I am. I like, love that page and they have this series called like, love is. And they say all the things that love is. And it’s like, that’s it. That’s what love is.
AD: Mhmm. For example, it’d be like: Love is taking caring of your neighbors.
LS: Mhmm.
AD: Or making sure that ICE doesn’t do something about disrupting families.
LS: We’re gonna pull up the page and give you some. So, the last one was: Love is radical joy. Love is revolutionary happiness.
AD: And their images are awesome.
LS: So awesome! Like, I am so in love with it. One is: Love is shutting down the settler-colonial nation-state.
AD: Just to kind of, for listeners, cause you can’t see the images, please go check it out. If you are able to on Instagram.
LS: Mhmm.
AD: Like, support them. But, in that one image, it’s like, two folks that are wearing all black, and have like, kinda of like, a mask on, you can just see their eyes or like, about to hold hands and like reaching out for each other.
LS: Mhmm. And not just two folks, two babies. Like, two little toddler babies.
AD: Yes.
LS: It is so adorable. So, it’s @bbyanarchists [on Instagram].
AD: Check them out. I like that, I like that kind of reclaiming of what love can be.
LS: Mhmm.
AD: Or what we can think of it differently.
LS: We hope you enjoyed that episode.
AD: And we’ll see you next time.
LS: Yep.
LS: Bye!
AD: Bye!
[44:47]
[♫ Musical outro.]
AD: Check us out at Abolition Science [dot] org, where you can sign up for our newsletter.
LS: And follow us on Instagram @abolitionscience and also follow us on Twitter @abolition_sci
AD: See you soon!
