Introducing Season 4
In this episode, we introduce season 4 and new changes to the podcast.
Episode Mentions
Connect with Atasi Das
Twitter @_atasi_das
Transcript (Please Excuse Errors)
[Music Intro ♫]
LaToya [LS]: Hey listeners! Welcome to Abolition Science Radio, we’re your hosts. I’m LaToya Strong-
AD [AD]: And Atasi Das. We’re here to talk all things science and math and their relationship to-
LS: Colonialism
AD: Oppression
LS: Resistance
AD: Education
LS: Liberation
AD: And so much more.
[ ♫ Music fade out.]
(00:25)
Hey listeners, we are back, finally. I don't actually know the, when the last episode aired, but we're back now.
AD: Yay, we're back.
LS: Uh, but it's bittersweet because we're back, but Atasi is leaving us. Because you're being responsible and focusing on...
(AD laughs)
LS: (laughs) ... on your dissertation so you can finish and get out of this program. So could you tell us a little bit about what your dissertation is about?
AD: Sure. It's so funny to be on the other side, (laughs), of the table. Well I have been really thinking, and writing, and reading about numbers and this idea of numeracy. So, you know, like numbers that are everywhere in the world, the symbol of numbers, the activity that, that people use to like categorize things. So I've been like researching about this and thinking about how numeracy is both something that we're always engaging with, always thinking about, doing something with, and it can also be a...
(01:33)
LS: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
AD: ... a political activity. So there's all this literature that talks about numeracy in like an institutional way, to be a engaged society, you have to read graphs and charts. If you know about numbers in that way you're a numerate. But...
LS:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
AD: ... there's also other people who talk about numeracy like it's actually way more nuanced, it's, it's everywhere. And so it's kind of like, there's a history of numbers. There's history even of how numbers are used, uh, people, uh, embody it. And so it's in our dance rhythms, it's in music, it's in hair braiding, it's in like even decisions of how the people think about time and whatnot. So anyways, so I've been like thinking about numeracy and my dissertation is thinking of like these critical engagements with it, that are like, kind of like bigger and how those can maybe be linked with other progressive, anti-colonial movements and struggles.
(02:32)
AD: And so there's like a critical STEM aspect to this.
LS: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
AD: Some like data science disruption, (laughs), I'm hoping to look at. And I was able to talk to a lot of educators, K-12 educators, and who have different relationships to like mathematics teaching and histories in terms of what they think about the purpose of schooling. And so it's like, how can we, and how do they think about a critical engagement with numeracy as a political activity? So I have been reading with you, Toya, (laughs), and, you know...
LS: (laughs)
AD: ... talking with you about abolition for some time, which is definitely interrelated with the dissertation. But I, yeah, I really need to finish the writing, which is taking, I feel like it takes a lot of purposeful, like what I would wanna say. So yeah, that's a little bit. I hope that made sense.
(03:25)
LS: It made sense to me. I have like so many questions, that's like a full episode.
AD: (laughs). Merely a dissertation.
LS: (laughs). Series of questions. So you're at the stage of what folks refer to as ABD, all but dissertation. So you've done your research and now you're going through the data and writing, correct?
AD: Yes. So yes. I'm like writing, reading. Uh, yes, just a lot of that. (laughs). And thinking.
LS: You're not...
AD: Yeah.
LS: I guess I described it very linearly, but it's not so linear. Any advice that you'd give to folks at this stage?
AD: Oh, that's a good question.
LS: (laughs).
AD: (laughs). Do I have advice? (laughs). I feel like I wanna seek advice, (laughs), but….
LS: (laughs).
AD: I don't know. I just think like there's a world of people doing things that are, I think very important right now.
LS: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
(04:16)
AD: And so part of me wanting to kind of focus to finish is to not be so outside of... Like, you know, there's a lot of reading and writing that kind of keeps you like connected to a computer. (laughs). And there's just a lot of work to do. There's a lot of organizing that needs to happen. And so, uh, I don't know if I have advice other than like, that's kind of what's making me say like, "No, I wanna finish this chunk." 'Cause I think it's important to do and then continue with taking part in different struggles and movements that are working to a di, a different and more liberatory world. So, uh, finish your dissertations. (laughs). Finish... Oh, don't fight back.
LS: (laughs).
AD: Finish your dissertations.
LS: Heard you.
AD: We got shit to do.
LS: Heard you.
(04:59)
AD: We got shit to do. And I like, uh, you know, if, if in your, as you're finishing your, like doing that work, simultaneously, which so many people do, wow. I'm like, this is me, like I'm bowing down to you. Like you're amazing. Yeah, I don't know. Finish, finish, finish.
LS: So Atasi again, sad face, is leaving us. And for a second I thought that I would have to do it by myself, but that wouldn't, I mean, it just didn't feel right or make sense to what the ethos of this, of Abolition Science is. And so joining me as cohost is Aderinsola, who is, [crosstalk 00:05:37], (laughs), a friend of ours who's in the doctoral program with us. Aderinsola, is there anything that you want the folks to know about you?
(05:49)
Aderionsola [AG]: Oh, wow. Hey y'all. I'm excited to be here.
LS: (laughs)
AG: Currently, I'm a STEM academic advisor. Within CUNY I work at Medgar Evers College. I'm also, too pursuing, a doctorate. I would say, one thing I would like to share with the listeners is, I am curious about how the world works around us, right? And so science naturally was a place that fed this curiosity.But yeah, I guess I'll start, I'll start with that... (laughs)
LS: laughs).
AG: ... about me. So Atasi, related to what you were talking about before, in a way, do you feel too, that you've been kind of doing that work in, in this journey to your dissertation in help, in, being part of the creation of, of this, Abolition Science?
(06:35)
AD: Yeah. That's, I mean, yes, absolutely. So I, I definitely think that, the creation of this podcast series is absolutely an extension of, you know, this kind of engagement in society and like kind of having this conversation open and available to a very broad audience. So I've been like, so thankful that Toya asked and we were able to build this together and is continuing. So yeah, it's been pretty dope.
AG: Most definitely. Most definitely. I had a... So, a question then for you is, now, given the state of affairs of just what, what's been going on. In the first episode, I remember your first few episodes, you both really sat with others interrogating - abolition. What is it? What does it look like? And how are you building, what is happening here on this platform into that larger conversation? For you, based on that first conversation, what aspects have maybe grown or maybe...
AD: Hmm.
AG: ... uh, changed from that point? And how do you see that thread continue to inform the work that you're doing right now with your dissertation?
(07:48)
AD: Yeah, that's a great question. (laughs). So I think like in the, in the beginning, we, you know, were trying to kinda establish the history of these terms.
AG: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
AD: And I think for me that that journey of historicizing abolition in the US context, particularly, and what I think I'm holding onto, is like this critiquing and deconstructing and then building. So that thread, I feel like continues, in the intention of the podcast and kind of how we talked about it. Like, how do we rethink and redo math and science? And I think what's changed is like, as I've talked to so many amazing activists and scholars and friends, and then like new friends, that they have challenged me to, I guess, I hate the saying, but I don't know another word for it.
AG: (laughs).
(08:43)
AD: But it's like the, the throw the baby with the bath water. Uh, there's gotta be, another line.
AG: (laughs).
AD: I don't know what that is.
LS: (laughs). Those poor babies. (laughs)
AG: (laughs).
(08:51)
AD: I know. I don't mean can, but okay, so to not, to not kind of think of that as like totally, dispensable, but as to think of it as, you know, like, what can we take to build a very different kind of world? And so I just feel like it's been such a beautiful learning experience, because folks were like, "Yes, abolition, I'm on board." And then also like I'm taking it in this way, or maybe they don't use that word itself...
AG: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
AD: ... but they're doing amazing, critical and political work and keeping community at the center. I don't know if folks saw that recent event with Ruthie...
AG: Yes.
AD: ... Gilmore Wilson...
AG: Yes.
AD: ... and, uh, Mariame Kaba. Yeah, it was amazing.
AG: Yes, it was, yes.
AD: Oh my goodness.
AG: (laughs).
(09:43)
AD: So one of the things that, you know, I took away from that talk was like, she talks about, at the very end, like there's all these different ways and meanings and approaches to abolition, especially that's kind of being put out right now, but, there's just like people struggling to make their lives, like this at the core is like, it's a, as a presence. And then there's like the simultaneous changing of everything to make a different society. And so like that, it's like, you know, I feel like I am having that echo in my thinking as I'm writing.
AG: Definitely. Oh, yes. I think, yes. You definitely answered my question, thank you for that.
AD: (laughs).
AG: And also thank you too, for bringing up that conversation with Dr. Ruth Wilson Gilmore and Mariame Kaba, because that, yes. Yes. It was very, I think timely. And I just wanted to add though, too, it was until you're, to think of math as in a verb, like numerating, I never even had much, let's say connection or even contact with that concept until hearing you speak about critical numeracy.
AD: Wow!
(10:50)
AG: ... and that... Yeah. And for me, both, both you, Atasi, and you LaToya, just what your questions were and how you've been going about your work, help to serve as proof as there's this possibility that often wasn't really supported in that spaces of inquiry, I would say.
AD: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
AG: ... in doing this type of dissertation work, right? And it...
AD: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
AG: ... for me, ushered in a whole new vein of {what} imagining and liberating can look like...
AD: Hmm.
AG: ... in practice. And so, yeah, just, put that out there.
LS: Thank you, that was sweet.
AD: You're so awesome.
LS: But Atasi's work...
AD: Yeah.
LS: ... it's, it's so dope. It's so fucking dope.
AG: Yes.
LS: And Atasi, you are the math person, own it.
AD: (laughs).
AG: (laughs).
(11:36)
LS: I think she only said that 'cause whenever we, we're all out to eat, the, when the bill comes, like Atasi, just tell us what we owe.
AD: (laughs).
AG: (laughs).
LS: (laughs). I think now, is that the reason now, why we're all just like, "Let's just split it. Let's just all split it evenly."
AD: (laughs).
LS: (laughs). It's like, "I'm not doing this, no more." (laughs).
AD: Yeah. We're not doing... Yeah. (laughs).
LS: Oh! Aw, there was a time when we could all go out to a restaurant or a bar, one day.
AD: Right? Right. (laughs).
LS: Mm, one day.
AG: One day.
AD: I, I had a question. So, Aderinsola, I think that you started leaning into this and like, I'm curious about your thought around, like, what you think about the current discussion on abolition is, and like how you kind of understand it. And then Toya, kind of similar to maybe, Aderinsola’s question of what do you feel like maintains in your understanding of abolition and what maybe has shifted.
(12:29)
AG: Hmm. When we wanna talk about liberation and it starts to be an, a topic that's, uh, trending, if you will, I'm then curious at the different takes and how people maybe see it in practice. Because, uh, it's, it's kinda usually like, okay, yeah, here, here's the uh, a definition, if you will, or even a concept, here's a theory about, around this concept, but what is it then in practice? So, so yeah, that, that has been very interesting, frustrating also...
AD: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
AG: ... looking at that gap between, uh, theory and practice. And the, and then really...
AD: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
AG: ... this world of implementation, especially in, with- within education. My understanding of it, again, through what has tied to the legacy of abolitionists from, the legacy of chattel slavery here in the US to black liberation globally, what had, that has looked like. And so it really is that act of...
AD: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
(13:25)
AG: ... disrupting, dis- dismantling systems and practices. That's how I've come to, come to understand it, but then creating something in its place. Again, kind of tying back to the present day discourse seems to just be a lot of talk, there's a lot of more constitution. Okay, how do we dismantle a system? But then that work or that, or the conversations around, what then is the system that will be in place?
AD: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
AG: ... In, in some respects, I am inspired by the conversations that are going on in certain circles, and kind of a lot of the emotions and apprehensions that are tied to this idea of abolition and also, especially as it relates to defunding the police. And what does that world look like to create systems that don't rely on the type of carceral program, uh...
AD: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
AG: ... justice systems that we have.
AD: Yeah, thanks.
LS: Uh, so for me, like it's, uh, around the question, right? It's around like the current use and like how it's coming up in mainstream conversations.
AD: Yeah. And then where are your thoughts are now compared to maybe if it's the same as previously or different?
LS: Gotcha. Okay, two-part question, right. I'm gonna start at part one.
AD: Okay.
(14:41)
LS: ... main stre-... So one, I think it's, it's great and amazing and dope that abolition is, as a term and as a concept, is being like taken up by folks who probably have never heard of it. So it's coming to the forefront of many people's minds and, and, just possibilities. But there's also a way that these things that starts from the folks who are impacted by a system, when it gets taken up, it just gets like watered down. And so what it actually means is lost.
(15:16):
LS: And so, and some people just think it's the next new trend. So there's, you know, like, you know, four years ago a program was called a social justice education program, two years ago was a decolonizing, education program. And now it's a abolition, abolitionists or abolition education program. And it's like, these words had meaning and how you take them up is how gives you a blueprint or roadmap, For the things you need to consider when moving towards liberation. And so if all you've done is stopped saying one word, and now you're using another word, but nothing else about what you do has changed. And you're, you know, it's like you, you're doing more harm than good. So the word is there, but the actual meaning of what needs to happen with that word is not. And so, because you know, a lot of folks are like, "Yes, we did abolition, we slashed this police budget by 10%." It's like, "No, that's not it, that's not what we asked for."
AD: (laughs)
(16:11)
LS: That's not, we said abolish. And so now it's, you know, abolition is like defunding the police instead of like literally abolishing the police. And so, and I don't like, I guess this has just been happening over and over. So I don't know what, how, when it gets taken up, like, what's that journey, so that doesn't happen. Or, I mean, just understand that's what it's gonna be and the folks who have been doing the work can continue to do the work, regardless of what word becomes trendy, uh, for the mainstream.
(16:42)
LS: Yeah. Because it's also a way, it's like how you live. If you are an ab, and then, and being an abolitionist, isn't like a, like I'm an abolitionist, so that's it. It's like constantly learning, like in moving yourself in your community. 'Cause it's also how you like interact with people, and to personally, how you interact with your community. So there's that. And then, the other part to that is that, it also showed me that like, when we have so much more work to do on the ground, to like have a society that's ready for abolition, to do that work, to build those relationships and those other infrastructures. Some folks have been doing that, some of it is there, but to move everybody there, we got some more work to do.
(17:23)
LS: So now, part two, how has it changed? I think when we first started out, it was like, we are just putting these two terms together and figuring out what it means. And so I think where we used to talk about it would be like mad broad, and general. I feel like now I can get more specific and talk in more detail about parsing out, like what abolition means in these different aspects of science. And so talking about like harm, you know, and being more specific and detailed about like abolition in relationship to science or science through the lens of abolition. Instead of it being like broad, and we're trying to theorize it and here are people who are doing it, but I can, I think I can actually like tease it out.
(18:10)
AD: Thanks for, engaging my curiosity and hopefully our listeners curiosity. I think, Aderinsola, may have brought up a term that I feel like maybe you're bringing towards like thinking of the carceral logics.
AG: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
AD: (And cause you, you know, you've made me think about it in science specifically and the ways in which science education is kind of situated in this country.
AG: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
AD: And the who and what is taught and how. So when I was thinking of specifics that you might refer to, I was like, oh, I feel like you've ta, you know, like talk about carceral logic.
AG: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
AD: (laughs)I wonder if you're gonna talk about that. Uh...
AG: Yes.
AD: Yeah.
AG: I really appreciate that question around where are the carceral logics that we find within science education, STEM education? And what are they really the impacts? Well, I mean, yeah, I mean, we know those impacts, right?
AD: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
AG: Um, and part of that, that's, that's in, in my understanding of abolition now and seeing in, now even being a part of it is like, one thing that really, uh, in kind of going deeper into this, uh, well, and taking on a dissertation or doctoral work is, really a reckoning with science history, right?
AD: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
(19:24)
AG: And also really scientific, uh, practice, what is deemed scientific practice and its really its connection to the colonial empire, right? And so, so when you have, when you have these values built into a practice, you then are working out a system of exploitation for the sake of progress, right? For me now, in looking at it, it's like, okay, I guess I'm looking for those, uh, the, those areas of where do we see the roots of this carceral, carceral logic in science education? And then how do we uproot that? And what can be put in its place?
(20:03)
AG: And th- then the other part of that for, for me is just like, already seeing so many adult practitioners out there doing that work already, but it's not really. And one thing I definitely appreciate about this p- podcast is that, being a platform to showcase that work that is already being done. Because so often it's just like, okay, well, if you don't ascribe to these logics, then what will we put in its place? And..
AD: Hmm.
AG: ... it's almost done in a way that it's, it's like, uh, it's a hopeless type of, feeling like, well, this is what we have, so let's make the best of what we have when rather there are people who've already been creating outside of these logic systems. And, and not only is this, this work, but how then can we, even listeners, consider to take that on themselves in their work, that they do.
LS: Mmm. I am thinking about carceral logic, for sake of time, we can come back to that. 'Cause it is... Okay, I, and then I'm gonna go on and say it anyway.
AG: (laughs).
(21:07)
LS: It's a l- little bit of like how students get excluded from the classroom.
AG: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
LS: But then we can think about it like, on that scale of like at the individual level, in the classroom and then extend it out to like what happens to communities and populations? Like who gets experimented on?
AG: Mmm, mmm.
LS: And who gets to benefit from that experimentation? So who gets penalized? Like even thinking about COVID, now, where they're doing these vaccine trials, and they're like, "We need more black people, African-Americans, people of color," and I'm like, do you now? (laughs).
AG: (laughs).
AD: (laughs).
LS: 'Cause if my memory serves me correctly, (laughs).
AG: Yeah.
LS: There's been plenty experiments done on black folk and indigenous folk in this country...
AD: Yeah.
LS: ... that you were able to apply to white folks, now all of a sudden that logic don't work.
AD: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Mm-hmm (affirmative).
(21:54)
LS: Make it make sense. (laughs). But, but yeah, I don't wanna cut the time, the conversation short, but also I was being mindful of time. Atasi, your work, I would love to... I mean, I'm gonna put you on a spot. Come, you should come back and talk about critical numeracy.
AG: Yes.
AD: Yeah..
LS: Like every time we start talking about your work, I start taking notes. 'Cause when your theory is so thick and rich that, I like still, I don't know how many years I've known you...
AD: (laughs).
LS: ... and have been talking to you about this. I'm always like, let me reread this, let me do this. And I think the way that your-
AD: That could mean it's not clear. (laughs).
LS: No, but I think if you're taking all of these like big ass theories and trying to weave them together to talk about a number, (laughs), that is, uh, that's a lot. That is like, that's, that's like deep, rich, exhausting work. So, you know, you ain't gotta tell us now, but you know, I'll text you later.
(22:46)
AD: (laughs). Well, I hope, yeah, I would definitely. I mean, I feel like I'm just doing a different phase of what this project of Abolition Science, the, the, like you said, it's like the doing and the practice. So yeah, of course I'd love to come chat it up, everybody.
LS: Yay, yay, yay.
AG: Yay.
AD: I just won't be on air every episode, but I'll be listening, of course. (laughs).
LS: Yay. (laughs).
AD: Recording all the time. Yeah.
LS: So Atasi, we have a new, so we're changing some things.
AD: Okay.
LS: So the first thing that is changing is the theme song, only because there was a period of time where I thought I was gonna be doing it by myself. And I was like, "Oh, you know, what'd be nice? A theme song instead of...", even though it was a nice theme song I made in garage band, and it was good. So I asked my younger brother and sister, I was like, "Hey, can you write me a theme song?"
LS: And they were like... Okay, so, they were like, "We're gonna do all these things." And it's nice. I love it. But I was like, "These ain't the things y'all said y'all's gonna do."
AG: (laughs).
LS: (laughs). But I mean, they are high-schoolers, they was, okay. So that I was like, Oh, it'd be like a new theme song. So yeah. So we got a new theme song, except this episode, we'll have the old theme song because memories.
AD: Okay.
(23:59)
LS: And we're going down to once a month, one episode a month.
AD: Nice.
LS: And what else is it? Aderinsola, what I'm I missing?
AG: The workshop component?
LS: Oh, yeah. We're gonna try, if it's...
AG: Yeah.
LS: ... at all possible to do workshops. So our first episode will be with Tiny Tech Zines and so...
AG: Yes.
LS: ... after their episode airs... So we're meeting with them again on Monday to sort of choose a date, we're gonna do a Zine making workshop.
AD: That's dope.
LS: And so we can't promise that there's gonna always be a workshop, but we'll try.
AG: Yes.
24:40
LS: Oh. And we don't know what the second episode is, 'cause they're all going to, we're gonna try to have them emerge, (laughs), which may come back and bite us, (laughs), in the hot pots as my aunt Gladys says. Indeed. So the goal was for the Tiny Tech Zines episode to be released... So we're thinking the first Tuesday of every month, but October 6 is right around the corner, so we'll let you all know. I have nothing else to say. Aderinsola, do you have anything else to say? And then Atasi, do you wanna like take us out?
AD: Uh...
AG: Ooh. I had one more question, which was, Atasi, what you listening to these days?
AD: laughs).
LS: Oh no. You didn't even ask her? (laughs).
AD: (laughs).
AG: (laughs).
LS: Oh my God.
AD: That is so fucking funny.
LS: (laughs)
(25:30)
AD: So what am I listening to these days? It's so funny, 'cause I have been writing and sometimes you're like, just so tired. And so I've been exploring just sounds online. Like I dunno how I found out this, about this, but I was like, okay, South Indian music. So Indian music is very broad and there's so many different strands. And there's this, one particular type of Indian music called Carnatic music...
LS: Mmm.
AD: ... it's mostly from South India. And so there's this festival called the Dar, Darbar Festival and happens in London and they highlight these artists and they have these beautiful videos that, uh, and like really nice sound. And so there was this one, I just, I'd happened upon it on YouTube. And the performer's name is Jayanthi Kumaresh and she plays, an instrument. It's like a s, it looks like a, uh, sitar, but it's called a Veena and she electrifies it.
AG: Oh!
(26:34)
AD: So it's typically, it's not electric, but it's... And I'll send you a video. It's quite beautiful. And I was just mes, I've been mesmerized by her actually in the past and it's just instrumentation. And so she like, here's this woman who's like, she has like a PhD, what, what's considered a PhD in music. And she's, you know, been studying this since she was like three years old. It's, uh, uh, the instrument's called a Saraswati veena. And so she's like strumming it and it sounds like an electric guitar, but it's like a different instrument and she's just like mesmerizing. And that's kind of like helped me finish some of my writing pieces. (laughs).
LS: Yay.
AD: 'Cause I'm just like, just like, I don't know. It's been doing something to my brain. I don't know, or my like, state of mind, just like takes me out of where I am right at that moment. So...
AG: Oh yes. Definitely here for that. Yes. I can't wait to listen.
(27:31)
AD: Yeah. And this festival it's actually got a really... They, they did a great job of highlighting musicians and also like teaching kind of like the history. 'Cause I don't know the history of, you know, all this music, I didn't study it. But they do a cool little blurb on YouTube.
AG: Hmm.
AD: So yeah.
AG: So is, is, is there a song, that you would, you would, you would recommend?
AD: Uh, yeah. Let me see if I can find a, a name of a song. Ah, it's called Raga Shanmukhapriya, and ragas are, as far as I understand, like the pattern of notes. And so there's these like particular intervals and rhythms and embellishments. And so that's what raga means.
AG: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
AD: And so this is like a particular version of that. So I'll, I can send the YouTube link.
AG: Yes.
AD: Yeah.
LS: Thank you.
AD: Yeah.
AG: Thank you.
AD: Can I say a shout out to the listeners?
AG: Hey, yes, yes.
(28:29)
AD: I just wanna say thank you. I've been so humbled and honored for all the folks who listen and then tell us, (laughs), and engage and that are building upon this kind of art piece that I feel like we're building together and make it your own. It's been so amazing to learn from the folks who've come on. So thank you, thank you, thank you. And I hope that, I think that in this time, particular moment, when there's, it's so easy to, to be divided and disconnected, not only physically because of COVID, but also politically and ideologically, that the way that this podcast allows various connections, in creative ways to happen, that I hope it continues. And that, you know, this is not the work of any, like people behind one side of the microphone for everyone, but it's together. And I feel like so honored that, as the listeners, that even in listening to this and thinking about it, you're a part of it in some way. And so I have deep appreciation for that. So that's all I wanted to say.
LS: Aw, that was sweet.
AD: Yeah, sweet. (laughs).
AG: (laughs)
LS: ( (laughs). And listeners, if you, uh, that was a hard are, if you, (laughs), wanna see some things back, you can tweet us, or you can send us a DM on Instagram, or send us a message or email, if you got some things you want to say to Atasi, you know.
AD: I have, I have a Twitter now.
AG: Hey.
LS: Oh, you're on Twitter. Okay.
AD: I entered the world. The, the murky world, the, the tweeting world.
LS: (laughs).
AD: So it's like _Atasi_Das. (laughs). You can find me there.
LS: _Atasi_Das.
(30:25)
AD: Thank you. No one knows how to spell my name, it's so true. (laughs).
LS: (laughs).
AG: (laughs). I'm, I'm, I'm looking you up right now. I'm looking... (laughs).
AD: Oh, good.
LS: Twitter's too much. Twitter's too real-time for me. I need like Instagram where it's like, it's much slower pace.
AD: Yeah, yeah, it's true. And I'm like, wow. People are like really thoughtful threads. I, yeah. It's an interesting space. So I'm a newbie. Be nice, (laughs)...
LS: (laughs).
AD: ... to me. Be kind to me as a newbie. Well, that's our episode. It's so great to have, uh, have this conversation. I'm so excited for Aderinsola to be joining this journey, on the podcast series. But that's it for today and hope to see everybody soon.
LS: Bye.
AG: Bye.
(31:18)
[♫ Musical outro.]
AD: Check us out at Abolition Science [dot] org, where you can sign up for our newsletter.
LS: And follow us on Instagram @abolitionscience and also follow us on Twitter @abolition_sci
AD: See you soon!
